Precisely, well said Jeff. I am not advocating a scientific discussion by whoever would be on the committee so much as an editing of data for the sake of differentiating various species in a universally accepted way. That way everybody is reading from the same page.
Cheers
David Kowalick
G’day Philip,
“Allow me to express what I hope is obvious”, you haven’t quite explained yourself here Philip or I suspect you don’t really understand the reasons for a committee as outlined by David. Evolution has got absolutely nothing to do with this, David wasn’t suggesting a committee that would change the Australian list to keep pace with the evolution of new species as they evolve!!! What would be your process that would deliver on “Suggesting a consistent list would be helpful”, it’s our evolving understanding of how many species there are through published research that is driving this issue and leading to an ongoing need to reassess the list. I am all for David’s suggestion, it’s way overdue.
Cheers Jeff.
Hello all. Jeff Davies wrote “…if we had a local committee following proper procedure the International lists would probably be very thankful and follow the changes”. Exactly, and isn’t this is basically what happened after the C&B list was published. Didn’t the IOC list basically adopt most of the changed suggested by C&B. In fact, for Australian birds (for a while) there were only a few differences in common names e.g., “Maned Duck”, before IOC continued on its splitting ways e.g., albatrosses, grasswrens etc. It is becoming less aligned because IOC is continually updating and is therefore probably becoming a better candidate for the Aus official list. It’s only a matter of time before C&B becomes too out of date to be useful. Like some others, I use C&B for my Aus list and IOC for my world list, but I am beginning to wonder why I bother using two taxonomies. I would suggest the least painful option for Australian birders is to adopt the list closest to C&B. Cheers Steve Murray
Yes it does! Fortunately, I keep my lists on a computer program that sorts most of it out for me, at least with periodic updating and some fussing (like I still have to update for the recent split between the American and European Winter wrens).
In a message dated 1/3/2011 10:49:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, davidtorr@gmail.com writes:
So you have the situation which applies here – keeping domestic lists according to one taxonomy and international ones according to a different one. Gets very confusing!
Hi again.
Just wanted to clarify how things work in the U.S.
A U.S. birder keeping lists under ABA rules has to keep a world list in accordance with three authorities:
1. The ABA checklist for birds within the ABA area (U.S. (except Hawaii), Canada and some offshore bits).
2. The American Ornithologists Union checklist for birds in its area but outside the ABA.
3. The Clements list for birds outside the AOU area.
In practice, the ABA follows the AOU on matters of taxonomy, and mostly makes decisions on whether an ABA record is acceptable or whether an exotic population has become established.
Most of the griping seems to be about Clements, who tends to be rather conservative.
Each of these publications is updated on a fairly regular basis.
Eric Jeffrey
In a message dated 1/3/2011 10:22:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, _malurus.jenny@gmail.com_ (mailto:malurus.jenny@gmail.com) writes:
Hi everyone,
I agree with what is being said in this discussion.
C & B have, I believe, publicly stated that they are not going to publish a new edition of their book. More than a new checklist, what I think is needed now is for some organisation to accept responsibility for maintaing the Australian checklist, post C & B – or adopting a new one.
Perhaps BOCA and BA, as the “recognised organisations” in Australian birding would accept this role?
I would add that both BOCA and BA are currently participating in the Birdlife International “Important Bird Area” project. For the purposes of the project the Birdlife International checklist is being used, not Systematics and Taxonomy of Australian Birds, Christidis & Boles (2008). Perhaps BA and BOCA could adopt the Birdlife International checklist for all their projects, not just the IBA project?
cheers
Jenny
On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Dave Torr <_davidtorr @gmail.com_ (mailto:davidtorr@gmail.com) > wrote:
That is correct – the “official” list (C&B) was not published by a birding organisation and the interval between issues is rather lengthy.
I personally do not think there is a role for a local committee to decide on the merits of splits/lumps – as this soon leads to the local list being mis-aligned with International lists. Currently we have a committee (BARC) that rules on new records. My feeling is that Aussie birders should agree (probably via the major organisations) to accept one international list and go with that for better or worse! We can then spend a long time arguing which list to accept. (If the proposed merger happens between the two major organisations – BA and BOCA – the combined organisation will become BirdLife Australia. BirdLife International of course published a checklist, so whether such an organisation would be obliged to use that list is a matter for yet more debate!)
the that href=”mailto:_david.kowalick@fishgate.org.au_”>_david.kowalick@fishgate.org.au_ (mailto:david.kowalick@fishgate.org.au) writes: by reasons nothing the consistent href=”mailto:_birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au) (mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au) ] On Behalf Of Philip Veerman href=”mailto:_birding-aus@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus@vicnet.net.au) Oz of href=”mailto:_birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au) (mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au) ] On Behalf Of David Kowalick href=”mailto:_birding-aus@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus@vicnet.net.au) Oz or href=”mailto:_birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au) href=”mailto:_birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au) href=”mailto:_birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au) ===============================
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Hi everyone,
I agree with what is being said in this discussion.
C & B have, I believe, publicly stated that they are not going to publish a new edition of their book. More than a new checklist, what I think is needed now is for some organisation to accept responsibility for maintaing the Australian checklist, post C & B – or adopting a new one.
Perhaps BOCA and BA, as the “recognised organisations” in Australian birding would accept this role?
I would add that both BOCA and BA are currently participating in the Birdlife International “Important Bird Area” project. For the purposes of the project the Birdlife International checklist is being used, not Systematics and Taxonomy of Australian Birds, Christidis & Boles (2008). Perhaps BA and BOCA could adopt the Birdlife International checklist for all their projects, not just the IBA project?
cheers
Jenny
href=”mailto:david.kowalick@fishgate.org.au”>david.kowalick@fishgate.org.au writes: href=”mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au ===============================
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So you have the situation which applies here – keeping domestic lists according to one taxonomy and international ones according to a different one. Gets very confusing!
href=”mailto:malurus.jenny@gmail.com”>malurus.jenny@gmail.com writes: href=”mailto:david.kowalick@fishgate.org.au”>david.kowalick@fishgate.org.au writes: href=”mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au ===============================
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Hi again.
Just wanted to clarify how things work in the U.S.
A U.S. birder keeping lists under ABA rules has to keep a world list in accordance with three authorities:
1. The ABA checklist for birds within the ABA area (U.S. (except Hawaii), Canada and some offshore bits).
2. The American Ornithologists Union checklist for birds in its area but outside the ABA.
3. The Clements list for birds outside the AOU area.
In practice, the ABA follows the AOU on matters of taxonomy, and mostly makes decisions on whether an ABA record is acceptable or whether an exotic population has become established.
Most of the griping seems to be about Clements, who tends to be rather conservative.
Each of these publications is updated on a fairly regular basis.
Eric Jeffrey
In a message dated 1/3/2011 10:22:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, malurus.jenny@gmail.com writes:
Hi everyone,
I agree with what is being said in this discussion.
C & B have, I believe, publicly stated that they are not going to publish a new edition of their book. More than a new checklist, what I think is needed now is for some organisation to accept responsibility for maintaing the Australian checklist, post C & B – or adopting a new one.
Perhaps BOCA and BA, as the “recognised organisations” in Australian birding would accept this role?
I would add that both BOCA and BA are currently participating in the Birdlife International “Important Bird Area” project. For the purposes of the project the Birdlife International checklist is being used, not Systematics and Taxonomy of Australian Birds, Christidis & Boles (2008). Perhaps BA and BOCA could adopt the Birdlife International checklist for all their projects, not just the IBA project?
cheers
Jenny
On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Dave Torr <_davidtorr @gmail.com_ (mailto:davidtorr@gmail.com) > wrote:
That is correct – the “official” list (C&B) was not published by a birding organisation and the interval between issues is rather lengthy.
I personally do not think there is a role for a local committee to decide on the merits of splits/lumps – as this soon leads to the local list being mis-aligned with International lists. Currently we have a committee (BARC) that rules on new records. My feeling is that Aussie birders should agree (probably via the major organisations) to accept one international list and go with that for better or worse! We can then spend a long time arguing which list to accept. (If the proposed merger happens between the two major organisations – BA and BOCA – the combined organisation will become BirdLife Australia. BirdLife International of course published a checklist, so whether such an organisation would be obliged to use that list is a matter for yet more debate!)
the that submit href=”mailto:_david.kowalick@fishgate.org.au_”>_david.kowalick@fishgate.org.au_ (mailto:david.kowalick@fishgate.org.au) writes: by explained reasons nothing the consistent href=”mailto:_birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au) (mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au) ] On Behalf Of Philip Veerman href=”mailto:_birding-aus@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus@vicnet.net.au) Oz href=”mailto:_birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au) (mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au) ] On Behalf Of David Kowalick href=”mailto:_birding-aus@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus@vicnet.net.au) or the href=”mailto:_birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au) href=”mailto:_birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au) href=”mailto:_birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au_”>_birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au_ (mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au) ===============================
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Depends what you mean by “proper procedure” Jeff. Given there are a number of recognised International lists some will recognise a given Aussie split, some will not (else they will all be the same!) So which procedure to follow? We would still need to state which is our “official” taxonomy and then sure a local team could work with them on Aussie splits/lumps.
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G’day Dave and Eric,
That’s correct Eric, we used to have a committee but alas no more, a step backwards. Dave, if we had a local committee following proper procedure the International lists would probably be very thankful and follow the changes.
Cheers Jeff.
That is correct – the “official” list (C&B) was not published by a birding organisation and the interval between issues is rather lengthy.
I personally do not think there is a role for a local committee to decide on the merits of splits/lumps – as this soon leads to the local list being mis-aligned with International lists. Currently we have a committee (BARC) that rules on new records. My feeling is that Aussie birders should agree (probably via the major organisations) to accept one international list and go with that for better or worse! We can then spend a long time arguing which list to accept. (If the proposed merger happens between the two major organisations – BA and BOCA – the combined organisation will become BirdLife Australia. BirdLife International of course published a checklist, so whether such an organisation would be obliged to use that list is a matter for yet more debate!)
href=”mailto:david.kowalick@fishgate.org.au”>david.kowalick@fishgate.org.au writes: href=”mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au href=”mailto:birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-request@vicnet.net.au ===============================
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Does Australia really not have a checklist committee? Here in the U.S., the American Birding Association provides the “official” checklist for the U.S., although to large extent they follow the broader AOU. Of course that does not stop people from disagreeing and keeping their own lists according to whatever criteria they prefer (so long as they do not submit them to the ABA). The whole concept of the Committee is to pass judgment on things such as proposed lumps/splits, whether proposed new records are acceptable, etc.
Eric Jeffrey Falls Church, VA USA
In a message dated 1/3/2011 9:18:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, david.kowalick@fishgate.org.au writes:
Precisely, well said Jeff. I am not advocating a scientific discussion by whoever would be on the committee so much as an editing of data for the sake of differentiating various species in a universally accepted way. That way everybody is reading from the same page.
Cheers
David Kowalick
G’day Philip,
“Allow me to express what I hope is obvious”, you haven’t quite explained yourself here Philip or I suspect you don’t really understand the reasons for a committee as outlined by David. Evolution has got absolutely nothing to do with this, David wasn’t suggesting a committee that would change the Australian list to keep pace with the evolution of new species as they evolve!!! What would be your process that would deliver on “Suggesting a consistent list would be helpful”, it’s our evolving understanding of how many species there are through published research that is driving this issue and leading to an ongoing need to reassess the list. I am all for David’s suggestion, it’s way overdue.
Cheers Jeff.