Hi All, After reading of the the reported Koel at Victoria Bridge, Richmond, I poped down there yesterday and heard a Koel calling (I recognised the call after hearing and seeing it in Newcastle) for around ten minutes. I didn’t have the time to look further but it was on the East side of the river (opposite side to the bike track) just upstream of the bridge. later like the other person, I pondered on the correct name, as it was reported as both the Eastern and the Austrlian Koel. My old Simpson and day calls it the Common Koel as does my Morcombe, Pizzey and Knight 8th Ed calls it the Eastern Koel and the most recent Simpson and Day (2010) calls it the Eastern (Common) Koel. If it is now properly called the Australian Koel?, does this mean that it does not migrate to PNG and Indonesia? Happy birding, Patrick Scully ===============================
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More importantly do we say it Ko el or Coal. I personally like Ko el as we can all sing every year…..
The first Ko el the angels did say
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Yes I should have read a bit further – Linneaus named a quite a few Koels: scolopaceus, niger, honoratus, orientalis, punctatus & mindaensis. Linneaus described orientalis second hand from a book by Brisson who in turn described it from a specimen in Reaumeur’s collection. Reaumeur apparently obtained it from a dutch count who had been sent it from the “les Indies Orientales”.
Andrew ===============================
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G’day Andrew,
Scolopaceus is the Asian Koel and as you point out it was named by Linnaeus 1758, from a specimen collected in India which is why the attribute scolopaceus stays with the Asian birds. Orientalis was attributed by Linnaeus in 1766 to the birds in southern Moluccas, this was the first described member of what was eventually to become the Eastern Koel.
Cheers Jeff.
Payne seems to indicate Linneaus described Cuculus scolopaceus from a Malabar specimen in his Cuckoos book, but Linneaus says they inhabit Bengal (google books will let you view Systema Naturae). Anyway I don’t think Dampier was involved. Andreew ===============================
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Hi Jeff,
No, I doubt Dampier was the supplier of the specimens Linnaeus used. I was saying that it is more likely that the specimen he used to describe the species was collected from outside Australia and as you say, possibly the then Dutch East Indies.
As for DNA testing, well it is not possible as it seems that Linnaeus did not keep any bird specimens, only plants insects, fish and shells. Linnaeus originaly named the Koel Cuculus orientalis. Linnaeus did also base species descriptions from illustrations, without a specimen in hand. Interestingly, Linnaesus practice was continued when he was used as the lectotype for Homo sapiens in 1959 and he certainly wasn’t around to be examined.
Cheers,
Carl Clifford
G’day Carl,
That was a convenient segue into the exploits of Dampier, not sure of the relevance to the discussion though. Are you saying Dampier was Linnaeus’s sole provider of specimens from the region. Or were you forgetting that the Dutch conducted a spice trade with the region which may have enabled some opportunistic collecting of birds from the Moluccas. Eastern Koel is found from Australia through Melanesia to the Moluccas which is where ssp orientalis is found and presumably was the first member of this species group named which would be why the name orientalis has priority. No need to chase all this up and do some DNA, it’s already been done. Just trying to create some clarity.
Cheers Jeff.
G’day Carl,
That was a convenient segue into the exploits of Dampier, not sure of the relevance to the discussion though. Are you saying Dampier was Linnaeus’s sole provider of specimens from the region. Or were you forgetting that the Dutch conducted a spice trade with the region which may have enabled some opportunistic collecting of birds from the Moluccas. Eastern Koel is found from Australia through Melanesia to the Moluccas which is where ssp orientalis is found and presumably was the first member of this species group named which would be why the name orientalis has priority. No need to chase all this up and do some DNA, it’s already been done. Just trying to create some clarity.
Cheers Jeff.
Alan,
I might be a bit thick…(pauses for sniggering), but where would the specimen that Linnaeus used for his study and naming, if it was published in 1766. The Dutch explorers were more interested in mapping the western coast, except for Tasman.
Dampier, though basically a pirate, did made copious notes on the peoples and natural history, but on his first voyage, he ended up being marooned on the Nicobar Islands and got back to England with basically the clothes he stood up in and his journals. On his second sojourn, he did hole up in Roebuck Bay, WA for a while and did collect many natural history specimens, but his ship came to grief after he left Australia, due to the normal rot and an incompetent ships carpenter and he and his ship ended up aground on Ascencion Is after taking water to a dangerous extent. He and his crew were marooned until picked up by a Dutch ship. He managed to salvage a lot of his charts and journals, but his specimen collection suffered somewhat. Dampier’s second and third circumnavigations were pretty much for piracy, though he did do English literature a favour, by dropping off Alexander Selkirk for a holiday on the second and picking him up on the third.
All this makes me wonder if Linnaeus actually described a specimen that came from the East Indies or New Guinea. The specimen that Linaeus used, may still be in his collection which is held by the Linnean Society in London. It would be interesting to do a DNA profile on a feater from the specimen, if it still exists.
Cheers,
Carl Cliff
ord
To quote C & B 2008….
Eastern Koel Eudynamys orientalis
C & B follows Mason (1997).
Under this division, the oldest available name for the species occurring in Australia is orientalis Linnaeus, 1766, which has priority over E. cyanocephalus Latham, 1801. This necessitates the introduction of a new English name for E. orientalis. Mason (1997) used the name Pacific Koel but as the species occurs throughout eastern Indonesia, the Moluccas, New Guinea, northern Melanesia and Australia, Eastern Koel is a more appropriate name.
Consequently the three species in the E. scolopaceus complex as recognised here are:
E. orientalis (Eastern Koel); E. scolopaceus (Asian Koel; southern Asia through to western Lesser Sundas and the Philippines) and E. melanorhynchus (Black-billed Koel; Sulawesi, Sula)
Hope this helps.
Alan
******************************************************************************* Alan McBride, MBO.
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Hi All, After reading of the the reported Koel at Victoria Bridge, Richmond, I poped down there yesterday and heard a Koel calling (I recognised the call after hearing and seeing it in Newcastle) for around ten minutes. I didn’t have the time to look further but it was on the East side of the river (opposite side to the bike track) just upstream of the bridge. later like the other person, I pondered on the correct name, as it was reported as both the Eastern and the Austrlian Koel. My old Simpson and day calls it the Common Koel as does my Morcombe, Pizzey and Knight 8th Ed calls it the Eastern Koel and the most recent Simpson and Day (2010) calls it the Eastern (Common) Koel. If it is now properly called the Australian Koel?, does this mean that it does not migrate to PNG and Indonesia? Happy birding, Patrick Scully ===============================
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G’day Tim,
You wrote in relation to the C and B listing of Eastern Koel “and is treated as conspecific with Common Koel E. scolopacea”. In the interest of avoiding the confusion spilling over into the Latin names I need to correct you, C and B do not treat Eastern Koel as conspecific with Asian Koel, they are both recognized as separate species in their book.
You mentioned that Eremaea uses Clements. The Eastern Koel is listed in C and B as Eudynamys orientalis not cyanocephalus as listed by Clements because ssp orientalis from the Moluccas which is part of the Eastern species was the oldest name for the species so takes precidence. To add to the confusion Clements have got ssp orientalis listed under Asian Koel not Eastern. I’m not sure how useful Clements’s “international data set ” is in this instance, it’s not really a “data set” it’s just a list of bird names and in this instance they are confused and have spread their confusion by being half-baked and not accurate with updating the list.
Cheers Jeff.
We could just call it a Koel.
John Leonard
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Hi,
This is my understanding of the current naming status of Eudynamys orientalis:
– Christides and Boles 2008 use the name Eastern Koel, and is treated as conspecific with Common Koel E. scolopacea. Note that Birds Australia uses C&B 2008.
– The Clements Checklist of Birds of the World produced by Cornell Lab of Ornithology use the name Australian Koel. Birdline International follows Clements.
– Schodde & Mason (1997, 1999) use the name Pacific Koel.
Most Australian birders use the Christides & Boles 2008 checklist, and as a consequence use the term Eastern Koel.
By my reckoning, almost certainly the confusion over the name in Australia is based on the fact that Eremaea uses the Clements Checklist, noting that Eremaea is an international service and has an international dataset. As a consequence the Australian Birdline services (sponsored by Birds Australia and hosted by Eremaea) also use the Clements Checklist, thus using Clements name Australian Koel.
The dilemma for the moderators of this service is that every time someone enters Eastern, Common and less commonly Pacific Koel, do we change the name to be in line with Clements or just leave it as is. (Noting that it gets entered in the Eremaea dataset as Australian Koel – and when it is transfered to the Birds Australia Atlas is it converted to Eastern Koel).
At this stage I tend to leave it as it, and thus we have several names in Birdline for the same bird. There are a quite a few other examples like this – the most recent for me being Grey vs Gray-streaked Flycatcher (or indeed Gray vs Grey Falcon), and of course the Albatross are a real issue of debate. But I’m not going there….
Hope this makes sense.
Cheers,
Tim Dolby ________________________________________ href=”mailto:birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au [birding-aus-bounces@vicnet.net.au] on behalf of Patrick Scully [scullyp3@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 1:23 PM href=”mailto:birding-aus@vicnet.net.au”>birding-aus@vicnet.net.au
Hi All, After reading of the the reported Koel at Victoria Bridge, Richmond, I poped down there yesterday and heard a Koel calling (I recognised the call after hearing and seeing it in Newcastle) for around ten minutes. I didn’t have the time to look further but it was on the East side of the river (opposite side to the bike track) just upstream of the bridge. later like the other person, I pondered on the correct name, as it was reported as both the Eastern and the Austrlian Koel. My old Simpson and day calls it the Common Koel as does my Morcombe, Pizzey and Knight 8th Ed calls it the Eastern Koel and the most recent Simpson and Day (2010) calls it the Eastern (Common) Koel. If it is now properly called the Australian Koel?, does this mean that it does not migrate to PNG and Indonesia? Happy birding, Patrick Scully ===============================
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The IOC has it listed as the Pacific Koel (Eudynamis orientalis), with it and two others having been split from the Common Koel (Asian Koel, E. scolopaceus and Black-billed Koel, E. melanorhynchus), so you have a choice of Eastern, Australian, Pacific or (if you don’t go with the split) Common Koel. However, some see it as not so clear-cut and treat the Australian Koel (E. cyanocephalus) as distinct from some of the subspecies included currently as the Pacific Koel, which then are subsumed into the Asian Koel. Isn’t taxonomy fun? Cheers,
Tony
To quote C & B 2008….
Eastern Koel Eudynamys orientalis
C & B follows Mason (1997).
Under this division, the oldest available name for the species occurring in Australia is orientalis Linnaeus, 1766, which has priority over E. cyanocephalus Latham, 1801. This necessitates the introduction of a new English name for E. orientalis. Mason (1997) used the name Pacific Koel but as the species occurs throughout eastern Indonesia, the Moluccas, New Guinea, northern Melanesia and Australia, Eastern Koel is a more appropriate name.
Consequently the three species in the E. scolopaceus complex as recognised here are:
E. orientalis (Eastern Koel); E. scolopaceus (Asian Koel; southern Asia through to western Lesser Sundas and the Philippines) and E. melanorhynchus (Black-billed Koel; Sulawesi, Sula)
Hope this helps.
Alan
******************************************************************************* Alan McBride, MBO.
Photojournalist | Writer | Traveller | + Member: Australian Photographic Society Travel Writers Association – Board of Directors American Writers & Artists Inc. International Travel Writers & Photographers Alliance National Association of Independent Writers & Editors Travelwriters . com Travcom New Zealand Regional Representative Australia: Neotropical Bird Club
http://web.me.com/amcbride1 http://www.wildiaries.com http://www.worldreviewer.com/member/alanmcbride/ http://www.linkedin.com/in/alanmcbride http://www.twitter.com/alanmcbride
Good planets are hard to find; until we do, please, be green and read from the screen
Tel: + 61 419 414 860 Fax: + 61 2 9973 2306 Skype: mcbird101
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Hi All, After reading of the the reported Koel at Victoria Bridge, Richmond, I poped down there yesterday and heard a Koel calling (I recognised the call after hearing and seeing it in Newcastle) for around ten minutes. I didn’t have the time to look further but it was on the East side of the river (opposite side to the bike track) just upstream of the bridge. later like the other person, I pondered on the correct name, as it was reported as both the Eastern and the Austrlian Koel. My old Simpson and day calls it the Common Koel as does my Morcombe, Pizzey and Knight 8th Ed calls it the Eastern Koel and the most recent Simpson and Day (2010) calls it the Eastern (Common) Koel. If it is now properly called the Australian Koel?, does this mean that it does not migrate to PNG and Indonesia? Happy birding, Patrick Scully ===============================
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