G’day all I mourn the decline of BA – having been a member since 1995 or so. Yesterday I was asked for information from a chap writing an article for Australian Field Ornithology. He did an online search and found an item on BA of mine from 2001 that supported his article. Today I would be more likely to report an observation of interest on one of the Facebook birding groups. Will a Facebook post from 2016 be able to be found in 2030? I would urge birders to continue to post actively on BA (as well as on the Facebook groups). Cheers Steve Clark Hamilton, Vic
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David, Tahnk you. Regards, Alan Alan’s Wildlife Tours 2 Mather Road Yungaburra 4884 Phone 07 4095 3784 Mobile 0408 953 786 http://www.alanswildlifetours.com.au/ —–Original Message—– Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 8:43 AM I’m going to offer a counter-view on the “proper grammar” subject and want to say right up front that I’m not harshing on anyone specifically. I guess my only possible worthwhile point is that before calling someone out on a mechanics error that *does not make their message unclear*, think if you really want to discourage that person from posting in the future.
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I’m going to offer a counter-view on the “proper grammar” subject and want to say right up front that I’m not harshing on anyone specifically. This is an issue mailing lists often face. Hopefully, I’m not trolling here and I don’t want to start a fight with anyone! I just have a different point of view since 1) I always found writing in English hard, 2) I grew up with a different version of “proper” English, 3) I’ve spent my adult life surrounded by people that aren’t native English speakers, and 4) …it turns out that “proper” is a social construct with a lot of racist/classist baggage and it has nothing at all to do with linguistics. Hmm. Does sound like a rant…not my point. Anyway, a couple of details below – but the main point is “do you want your mailing list to be more inclusive or to discourage people from posting?” I vote for “inclusive”, and this list often is. I’ve noticed over the years that people on this list are typically *incredibly kind* to new birders that make “obvious” mistakes. How fine is that? When you’re new, encouragement goes a long way…and so does criticism (even if accurate.) Anyway, a couple of other points below for anyone that cares. “Proper grammar” is a pretty loaded term, as it turns out. (My wife studied linguistics in uni and opened my eyes to it quite a bit.) Quite an interesting history there too tied up in class and regional relations. Anyway, this isn’t the place for that conversation. The problem of “correcting” grammatical/syntactic/mechanics errors on general mailing lists is that it *greatly discourages people from posting.* Which people? People that aren’t great at mechanics for one reason or another: * Perhaps they’re writing English as a second or third language. Why wouldn’t we want to hear from them because of that? * They’ve got some variant of dsylexia or another neurological wrinkle that makes “proper English” harder to produce. (Recommended: I just finished Steve Silberman’s “Neurotribes” – heartbreaking, fascinating, and encouraging all at the same time. And beautifully written.) * As a note: English spelling isn’t rational, unlike Italian or Spanish, for example. Also, the “correct” forms for a lot of things are regional. There isn’t one, standard form of English, there are lots of them. Apart from regions, “proper” depends on context. The birding list used by folks in the Monterey Bay area of California put species in all caps like CALIFORNIA CONDOR or SAYS PHOEBE. Why? Because on a plain-text message, it makes the name pop out. All caps are less readable but when that’s all you’ve got for emphasis, it kind of works. If I think about it and struggle a bit I can try to do it the “right” way like “Fatty-spotted Chiffchaff” instead of “Fatty-Spotted Chiffchaff”…but I have to think about it…and how much better does it make the conversation? It doesn’t. I can also remember that the correct way to capitalize a binomial is Merops apiaster, not Merops Apiaster. That I tend to get right because if you’re in a context where people are using binomials in the first place, you’re probably dealing with people that do it the standard way all of the time. People can choose to get as picky as they like about diction and mechanics, and there’s a place for it. If I were in a masters program, I’d be expected to say “the data are clear.” In the rest of the world, that just sounds incredibly pretentious. (I do say “genera” just because I find “genuses” hard to say and unclear how to spell.) Since this is a general-purpose, open and public mailing list, I don’t think that academic standards apply. The data is clear on this đ Anyway, we all have out pet peeves and if anyone has “sloppy” writing on their list, fair enough. I’ll never talk them out of it…and I’ve got my own set of errors that I think are too much. Put another way, I’m just at a different spot on the same continuum so I can’t claim to be “right” – I’m just taking a different position. I guess my only possible worthwhile point is that before calling someone out on a mechanics error that *does not make their message unclear*, think if you really want to discourage that person from posting in the future. Also, they may not take your well-intentioned remarks as such and unfairly conclude that they don’t like you and then become less willing to read or get value from your posts.
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Yes Jude, we all do. Tony —–Original Message—– Roaminoz – Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 7:26 AM Cc: birding-aus I can’t believe people would do this. I absolutely love getting the trip reports on birding-aus … Jude are certainly unwelcome: written “Went to and saw birds.”
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I can’t believe people would do this. I absolutely love getting the trip reports on birding-aus … perhaps this is why there has been a decline in reporting. Jude
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And the use of correct grammar is not that difficult. Carl Clifford
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More on this……. I would be surprised if diplomacy is often lacking (emphasis on “often”). And if so, surely not intentionally. Corrections are usually offered simply to be helpful – to assist in doing better next time. I will give and take them in that spirit. Of course best to remember to be positive to the good points as well (commend, recommend, commend). Either way to carry the analogy to print, as Greg has done, it is so much better to have your writing checked and corrected before it appears in print than being picked up for sometimes silly errors after. If suggested corrections are not correct, it is often not because the original intent was wrong, as much as that it could be expressed more clearly. Then at least you have the opportunity to clarify. It is well worth doing. My experience is similar to Greg in this, also based on often refereeing and editing others’ writing, before publication, also writing reviews of published works. It is so much worse to have to point out errors in published stuff (mine and other’s) that should have been picked up earlier. Although on this email list we don’t need or expect to be so correct as in proper publication. Emails are generally done quickly and so not always us at our best. I have at various times offered corrections to items sent in to this line. Not when trivial, as “typos” can be ignored. Sometimes when amusing, because that can be entertaining. Mostly though in an attempt to reduce promulgation of errors. Things like often Dr Horsfield’s name being given as Horsefield or just as bad, missing the apostrophes in the bird’s name when the name is in the context of naming after a person. Or the strange randonmess of inserting a meaningless apostrophe in plural words for bird’s names. Where does that come from? And yes that just happens to be something I care about. We even had the non word of someone writing recently about “sitings” of birds, when what clearly was intended was “sightings”, unless they meant “sites”. Or people writing about “decimation” when they mean devastation and when decimation (10% reduction – if done once) is actually generally trivial. Individual mistakes don’t matter much but I sure wouldn’t like it to be repeated. Placement of hyphens etc also does matter. A good example is someone writing about “Red-collared Dove” which ordinarily sounds like a good bird’s name for a dove with a red collar. It caught my attention at the time as it seemed so odd. However it is not right description or spelling as it has a black collar and is a variant of the other black collared doves but with overall red plumage. So it would be Red Collared Dove, which means something entirely different from Red-collared Dove, although usually called Red Turtle-Dove. I have sometimes commented on that I think some items (in particular “bird a day”) are dopey, because they require a lot of effort and cost and don’t achieve much that is useful and prescribe that once a species in on your list, then it becomes uninteresting. (To me a bird becomes more interesting as you get to know more about it.) I wrote that in the context of that the general public often think birders are weird geeks. If indeed it is true that birding is about things like “bird a day” (and its weird protocols) then I would be forced to agree that we are weird. I don’t see such a perception as useful to our public relations or the greater good of bird study or conservation. Just bits of my opinion which are no more important than anyone else’s. But I have been diplomatic in expressing it. Philip —–Original Message—– Sent: Sunday, 10 January 2016 11:56 AM Cc: birding-aus I agree that with the correction of mistakes often it is diplomacy that is lacking but the other side of the coin is a strong objection by some to being corrected. As someone who has published many papers in refereed journals I have become used to having my writing severely corrected. At times I believe the reviewers have been unfair in their comments so I have stuck to my guns. However the critical evaluation of data and information is essential to good science and although the BA site is not a scientific site it is desirable to maintain a high standard of accuracy as mistakes can be perpetuated as Philip states. So the lessons to be learned are – correct mistakes but be diplomatic and accept corrections if they are well founded. Personalising comments and criticisms is not appropriate. Regards Greg Dr Greg. P. Clancy, Ecologist and Birding-wildlife Guide | PO Box 63 Coutts Crossing NSW 2460 | 02 6649 3153 | 0429 601 960 http://www.gregclancyecologistguide.com http://gregswildliferamblings.blogspot.com.au/
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I agree that with the correction of mistakes often it is diplomacy that is lacking but the other side of the coin is a strong objection by some to being corrected. As someone who has published many papers in refereed journals I have become used to having my writing severely corrected. At times I believe the reviewers have been unfair in their comments so I have stuck to my guns. However the critical evaluation of data and information is essential to good science and although the BA site is not a scientific site it is desirable to maintain a high standard of accuracy as mistakes can be perpetuated as Philip states. So the lessons to be learned are – correct mistakes but be diplomatic and accept corrections if they are well founded. Personalising comments and criticisms is not appropriate. Regards Greg Dr Greg. P. Clancy, Ecologist and Birding-wildlife Guide | PO Box 63 Coutts Crossing NSW 2460 | 02 6649 3153 | 0429 601 960 http://www.gregclancyecologistguide.com http://gregswildliferamblings.blogspot.com.au/ —–Original Message—– Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 5:56 PM Cc: birding-aus Membership of the birding-aus mailing list doesn’t seem to be declining, Philip – still growing, I think. What’s changed is the number of postings. Jenny mentioned the trip reports, but what I’ve noticed is the vagrant alerts. A vagrant that would once have generated dozens of postings the same day it was reported, is sometimes never even mentioned here now, although these reports seem to be returning to some extent. Requests for help with identification have moved to Facebook in a big way, probably because of the ease of posting photos. As for correcting mistakes, I think all that’s lacking at times is diplomacy. I should know, I’ve been guilty of it enough times. Peter Shute Sent from my iPad
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Hear hear, Mike – gee, some of Paul’s trip reports for instance are fab. I am astounded by what Paul writes – those criticisers are a MINORITY. Keep those posts coming, please
Regards, Peter Madvig —– Original Message —– Cc: “Jenny Spry” < malurus.jenny@gmail.com>; “birding-aus” < birding-aus@birding-aus.org> Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 8:30 PM
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Amazing stuff and very disappointing to read that Paul. Whilst Im only a periodical contributor over many years I canât say that Iâve had such response on or off line Personally Ive always been impressed by your openness to share information whether on trip reports or camera stuff etc. I will say this though – if anyones a bird photographer, uses call playback or bands birds you need a damn thick skin to be on this forum sometimes! !!! âŠâŠâŠâŠto a few souls these folk are on there way to hell in a dung basket!! Long may BA continue for mine along with all the other online services – all have their place! Cheers David Taylor On 8 Jan 2016, at 5:38 pm, Paul Dodd < paul@angrybluecat.com> wrote: David and Marg Taylor Brisbane
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Gâday Pau; All of those negative comments are irrelevant to the majority of readers who appreciate the positives of most of those points. Some people do not understand tolerance, or even see other peoples interests. Keep looking, keep recording, and keep posting. With thanks Prof Mike Tarburton
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I too have received email responses offline that, whilst not threatening are certainly unwelcome: Criticising my trip reports as a waste of time and that I should just have written “Went to and saw birds.” Suggesting that my posts were pointless and irrelevant. Suggesting that because the particular member wasn’t interested in what I had to say, I should not have bothered posting. Incessant correction of spelling, punctuation, grammar and capitalisation. Suggesting that any sort of distance birding was wasteful, pointless and unnecessarily increased my carbon footprint. Suggesting that keeping lists was irrelevant and did not contribute to the “science” of birding. Suggesting that organising or participating in Twitchathons was wasteful, non-contributing and unnecessary use of resources. Competitively participating in a Big Year was wasteful, unnecessary and did not contribute to the “science” of birding. Being told that my particular forms of birding were wrong or non-contributing because they didn’t align with the respondent’s form of birding. Being told that my posts on camera gear were useless and not related to birding in any way so should not be posted. Being told that bird photography was not real birding. Being told that bird photographers (including me) were scum and responsible for all sorts of ills. I’m sure I could find other examples, as the list is quite extensive. So, to those of you that have proffered “surprise” at Jenny, these things really happen. It’s somewhat wearing, to be honest. And I’ve never had similar responses or backlash to any of my posts on Facebook. Paul Dodd Docklands, Victoria Sent from my iPhone
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I hadn’t heard of either of those trip report sites. Do you know what happened to the reports on TravellingBirder? Were they lost, or did they get transferred to CloudBirder? Peter Shute
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I think this was an interesting discussion to have, as I had really noticed the decline in twitching reports (which I sometimes followed but was more out of interest – I rarely would race off to add a tick to my list, unless in reasonable proximity to where I happen to be). It seems this has been replaced by the Facebook page – in many ways the immediacy of FB suits this requirement. I have joined the Birding-Aus Group on FB but don’t look at it very often (my feeling it is mainly aimed at photographers, which I don’t have the patience or skill for). I mainly use FaceBook to keep up with family (and for sharing photos to friends) and so I don’t use it as a resource for info on potential birding spots like I have with Birding-Aus. I was worried that there had been a decline in trip reports and RFIs, but it seems this may not be the case (will test this later in the week when I put in a request for info on an upcoming Melbourne trip). For longer reports I think the CloudBirder website is excellent (and I think it replaced TravellingBirder? which disappeared a few years ago) – I have put a few on there (including PNG) and when I finish my Cape York trip report from last year I will put it there as well. Finally, I know of a number of people that regularly scan the archives of birding-aus but have never contributed (often because of the issues raised by others in this chain) and this forms an important resource and hopefully continues – and in the long run it is possibly more important that people can search the archives to find out how to access somewhere like Boat Harbour rather than get info on the American Golden Plover that frequented there for a while a few years ago (the BARC submission if done should have that detail). Cheers, Peter
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I thought the same thing Penny. I guess he may look even younger by then. —–Original Message—– Penny Brockman Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 10:27 AM I’m glad to see that Russ will keep birding to 2061 ! On 5/01/16 9:41 PM, Russell Woodford wrote: BA Facebook group that it would mean the end of the mailing list. But news of our demise has been greatly exaggerated! Great to see that this forum still has currency for many people – and I intend to keep it going while ever that is the case. birding-aus over the last few years, and particularly in 2015. Out of the team of moderators, they are really the ones to whom we owe the continuing existence of birding-aus. for you all in every aspect. that.
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Ok, thanks. On Wed, 6 Jan 2016 at 13:08, Peter Shute < pshute@nuw.org.au> wrote: — Dr. Lawrie Conole Tylden 3444 Australia 0419588993 lconole@gmail.com
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The requirement for “immediacy” isn’t necessarily a conflict with record keeping. Email can be just as fast as Facebook, but not if there’s moderation involved. There’s also a delay with the current list server that we haven’t been able to fix. For some reason, some postings can be delayed for random amounts of time after approval. It doesn’t happen to gmail recipients, no idea why. When the list was still hosted by Vicnet, they used to be delivered quickly. Peter Shute Sent from my iPad
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You can use the standard Facebook web page without getting “the baggage”. You can turn off notifications from any person or group, and get your newsfeed back down to something manageable. I bet they use it occasionally – you can’t have a Facebook account without an email address. Peter Shute
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Penny, haven’t you seen Russell’s new Geelong Library? It is in fact the TARDIS outfitted with a pair of binoculars. Bill On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 10:56 AM, Penny Brockman < penny@pennydb.org> wrote:
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The disdain of the young for email versus social media platforms (my daughters are the same) is a conflict between immediacy and record keeping – forgetting that with immediacy comes ephemerality. Ephemerality is only a problem if you value what might be lost, and in a world of instant gratification perhaps to the majority that is just unimportant collateral damage. I use social media all the time, but I also like to record information – horses for courses. As someone indicated earlier, eBird is a great bridging platform. Permanent record for important/useful information, and moreover, easy to log data to from a smartphone in the field. Getting more user-friendly _and_ useful all the time. cheers Lawrie On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 10:48 AM Steve Clark < bukoba.steve@gmail.com> wrote: — Dr. Lawrie Conole Tylden 3444 Australia 0419588993 lconole@gmail.com
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I’m glad to see that Russ will keep birding to 2061 ! On 5/01/16 9:41 PM, Russell Woodford wrote:
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G’day all In my post which started this thread I mentioned the fact that Facebook isn’t (as far as I know) searchable by Google, Bing etc. So an interesting behaviour observation someone posts today will be essentially lost to future birders. This was not the case with birding-aus which is archived and searchable. Apart from that I don’t really care which forum people use. If you want to report something that people can access in years to come post it on birding-aus at least and Facebook as well if you wish. People rightly reject Facebook because of all the baggage that comes with it. Me too! However you can access just the groups on iOS and Android phones and tablets without all the baggage. Search your app store for the Facebook Groups app. There is no version for standard computers unfortunately (as far as I know). Oh, and ask anyone under 30 what they think of email as a means of communication. My three kids won’t use it. Cheers Steve Clark Hamilton, Victoria
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Smart phones ? Oh, so that’s what my trouble is. None of that expensive mobile gadgetry for me – and my neck bones are still up straight, not kinked permanently forward and down.( BTW this has now been acknowledged as a medical condition). You could try to call me , I’m on unlimited local and interstate landline calls and skype, and have no problems with flat batteries. T. Hm ! does that count as friendly trolling ? —–Original Message—– Peter Shute Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 8:11 AM Cc: birding-aus@birding-aus.org There’s no doubt that twitching news has moved to FB in a big way. Tim, can you please elaborate on the gap you referred to? What is it that FB is lacking that a website/forum could fix? There’s been an Australian sub forum on http://www.birdforum.net for a long time, but my impression is that it rarely gets much traffic apart from stuff that interests UK birders. For some reason Australian birders seem to have been reluctant to move from mailing lists to web sites till FB. I suspect it was the introduction of smart phones that helped Facebook usage spread, and a lot of web forums are difficult to use on a small screen. I agree that FB group size is no guide. Can anyone supply a list of Facebook groups relevant to Australian birding, with a description of the sort of traffic each one gets? My strategy has been to join lots of them, and see what comes up in my feed. Peter Shute Sent from my iPad contributed to – as with any facebook group it relies on the members to contribute so comparing membership is not of much use. There are more focused groups on twitching, pelagics, state based birding and special interest groups like waders and raptors that have far more members and are far more relevant and give more up to date information. For me the tipping point came when a very amateur photographer photographed a Bridled Tern and posted in the Vic Birders forum asking for ID – ID gained, the twitch was organised, people went and failed and we all laughed about it. 3-4 days later a mention finally filtered onto BA…. of what use was that to anyone? There are many examples following – and guess what none of them made it here in a timely manner let alone the BA FB Group. Facebook is actually far from a perfect forum – would be ideal if there was an Australian birding website/forum that could bridge the gap – there is a serious market gap for this. I have been a subscriber to BA for near on 20 years but have hardly contributed for near on 15 years due to the pedantry and behaviour of people on the forum and that has been your loss. I find it ridiculous that some of the worst culprits were the first to protest when this topic came up and express shock and innocence. Happy to take it up offline with any of you who think it applies…. Lawrie. wrote: lifetime ago … but a mere 21 years. alluded to. suitability of FB so much. many subscribers are there now?
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I’m not a regular FB user either. Given that there are multiple FB pages about Australian birds, bird-watching and twitching, it would be great if they could acknowledge each other’s existence by having FB page names and hyperlinks permanently displayed in prominent location on their pages to alert FB members of them. It seems to me that each FB page provides slightly different services or different emphases to bird-watching or bird discussions, and it would be good if they could complement each other (through links) rather than competing. Stephen Ambrose Ryde, NSW —–Original Message—– John Tongue Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 9:55 AM Cc: ‘Birding Aus’ I think Tony’s comments are partly right – there are a lot of FB pages to do with photography, and specific areas, etc. But there is also a plethora of pages related to conservation issues as well. It’s just a matter of what you’re looking for. John Tongue Devonport, Tas. On 06/01/2016, at 8:54 AM, “Tony Russell” < pratincole08@gmail.com> wrote: ventured on to f/b some months ago. The f/b birding sites cover a range of specific geographic areas and interest groups but very little to do with conservation topics. It seems to me it is used extensively by photographic twitchers. Have a quick squizz to see if it meets your taste. form of social media, what is being posted to Facebook (and not B-A) that I am missing? Of Kim Sterelny informative. Whenever I have need advise I have got it, and its been informed and detailed. I am very grateful to Russell and any others who have kept it in being. have gone on beyond their best-before date. But the subject line usually gives those away, and one can just delete them. couple of others) which arose passions and hence traffic with an unfavourable signal to noise ratio. I am astounded that (eg) posting trip reports has generating flaming responses, and am very sorry to learn that. my cat ownership – a potential trigger issue). Some disagreement sure, but nothing at all lacking in respect. thanks for the advice, expertise and good will I have experienced (and the blogs with the fantastic photos: keep posting those links), and I’ll just edit into electronic oblivion anything else.
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You mean I’ve got to go look again ?? Guess I don’t normally go for the conso stuff. —–Original Message—– Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 9:25 AM Cc: ‘A Smith’; ‘Birding Aus’ I think Tony’s comments are partly right – there are a lot of FB pages to do with photography, and specific areas, etc. But there is also a plethora of pages related to conservation issues as well. It’s just a matter of what you’re looking for. John Tongue Devonport, Tas. On 06/01/2016, at 8:54 AM, “Tony Russell” < pratincole08@gmail.com> wrote: ventured on to f/b some months ago. The f/b birding sites cover a range of specific geographic areas and interest groups but very little to do with conservation topics. It seems to me it is used extensively by photographic twitchers. Have a quick squizz to see if it meets your taste. form of social media, what is being posted to Facebook (and not B-A) that I am missing? Of Kim Sterelny informative. Whenever I have need advise I have got it, and its been informed and detailed. I am very grateful to Russell and any others who have kept it in being. have gone on beyond their best-before date. But the subject line usually gives those away, and one can just delete them. couple of others) which arose passions and hence traffic with an unfavourable signal to noise ratio. I am astounded that (eg) posting trip reports has generating flaming responses, and am very sorry to learn that. my cat ownership – a potential trigger issue). Some disagreement sure, but nothing at all lacking in respect. thanks for the advice, expertise and good will I have experienced (and the blogs with the fantastic photos: keep posting those links), and I’ll just edit into electronic oblivion anything else.
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I just remembered one reason someone here once gave for preferring a mailing list to a web forum – not allowed to use web forums at work. I assume the same would apply to Facebook. Peter Shute Sent from my iPad
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Hi Tones, get your nose out of facebook, get on a plane and go twitch those Crested Honey Buzzards in Perth…… Don’t want to see another message on B-A until you have been, and I want photo proof that you were there!!âș Happy New Year. Cheers John *Yours in all things* “*GREEN”* *John Harris BASc, GDipEd* *Croydon, Vic* *Director – Wildlife Experiences Pty Ltd* *Principal **Zoologist/**Ecologist* *Nature Photographer* *Wildlife Guide* *wildlifeexperiences@gmail.com < wildlifeexperiences@gmail.com>* *www.flickr.com/photos/wildlifeexperiences* *0409090955* *Past President, Field Naturalists Club of Victoria* *(www.fncv.org.au )*
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I think Tony’s comments are partly right – there are a lot of FB pages to do with photography, and specific areas, etc. But there is also a plethora of pages related to conservation issues as well. It’s just a matter of what you’re looking for. John Tongue Devonport, Tas. On 06/01/2016, at 8:54 AM, “Tony Russell” < pratincole08@gmail.com> wrote:
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Yes, I found the same thing. Fortunately I did scan f/b and picked it up – and went to Vic and got the dowitcher. —–Original Message—– Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 5:42 PM Cc: Birding-Aus When the Long-billed Dowitcher appeared late 2014 I waited for info on birding-aus. Virtually nothing appeared. I enquired and found it was all on the Facebook Aust twitchers group. The young folk don’t do email! Steve Clark
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Hi Alistair, quite a lot some days. I found this to my horror when I first ventured on to f/b some months ago. The f/b birding sites cover a range of specific geographic areas and interest groups but very little to do with conservation topics. It seems to me it is used extensively by photographic twitchers. Have a quick squizz to see if it meets your taste. Tony —–Original Message—– Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 4:20 PM Cc: Kim Sterelny; Tony Russell Like Kim, I am not a Facebook user. So for those of us that donât use that form of social media, what is being posted to Facebook (and not B-A) that I am missing? Regards Alastair Let’s hope Russ is reading all this good stuff ! —–Original Message—– Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 2:18 PM Hi Folks I. I am not a facebook user and I find this list immensely helpful and informative. Whenever I have need advise I have got it, and its been informed and detailed. I am very grateful to Russell and any others who have kept it in being. 2. Obviously, there have been the odd thread (perhaps even this one) that have gone on beyond their best-before date. But the subject line usually gives those away, and one can just delete them. 3. Equally obviously, there are a few “trigger issues” (bird banding + a couple of others) which arose passions and hence traffic with an unfavourable signal to noise ratio. I am astounded that (eg) posting trip reports has generating flaming responses, and am very sorry to learn that. Nothing remotely like that has even happened to me (even when I defended my cat ownership – a potential trigger issue). Some disagreement sure, but nothing at all lacking in respect. So armed with my trusty delete button, I say “long live birding-aus”, and thanks for the advice, expertise and good will I have experienced (and the blogs with the fantastic photos: keep posting those links), and I’ll just edit into electronic oblivion anything else. Kim
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Yes Philip, I hate facebook too, too much clutter from people one has never heard of ie friends of other people who somehow get you ‘tagged’, whatever that is. However, after resisting for many years I do now sneak a look at the facebook birding sites simply because ‘stuff’ turns up there when it might not be on b-a. Makes for a messier life though. BTW, nice to hear from Russ about b-a continuing. Tony. —–Original Message—– Philip Veerman Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 4:45 PM I am confused about this topic. What is the decline that people are writing about? Has someone explained that. Does this mean that membership numbers are reducing? I can’t imagine how Facebook can take its place. I hate Facebook. It is constantly telling me I have friends that I have no knowledge of…… I think BA is very useful. As for people correcting mistakes, well that is important in some cases, as if not corrected they get perpetuated. And communication is important. Philip
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There’s no doubt that twitching news has moved to FB in a big way. Tim, can you please elaborate on the gap you referred to? What is it that FB is lacking that a website/forum could fix? There’s been an Australian sub forum on http://www.birdforum.net for a long time, but my impression is that it rarely gets much traffic apart from stuff that interests UK birders. For some reason Australian birders seem to have been reluctant to move from mailing lists to web sites till FB. I suspect it was the introduction of smart phones that helped Facebook usage spread, and a lot of web forums are difficult to use on a small screen. I agree that FB group size is no guide. Can anyone supply a list of Facebook groups relevant to Australian birding, with a description of the sort of traffic each one gets? My strategy has been to join lots of them, and see what comes up in my feed. Peter Shute Sent from my iPad
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The BA facebook group is largely irrelevant and one that is not much is contributed to – as with any facebook group it relies on the members to contribute so comparing membership is not of much use. There are more focused groups on twitching, pelagics, state based birding and special interest groups like waders and raptors that have far more members and are far more relevant and give more up to date information. For me the tipping point came when a very amateur photographer photographed a Bridled Tern and posted in the Vic Birders forum asking for ID – ID gained, the twitch was organised, people went and failed and we all laughed about it. 3-4 days later a mention finally filtered onto BA…. of what use was that to anyone? There are many examples following – and guess what none of them made it here in a timely manner let alone the BA FB Group. Facebook is actually far from a perfect forum – would be ideal if there was an Australian birding website/forum that could bridge the gap – there is a serious market gap for this. I have been a subscriber to BA for near on 20 years but have hardly contributed for near on 15 years due to the pedantry and behaviour of people on the forum and that has been your loss. I find it ridiculous that some of the worst culprits were the first to protest when this topic came up and express shock and innocence. Happy to take it up offline with any of you who think it applies…. CheersTim
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I am! Thanks for all the positive comments. I really thought that when I set up BA Facebook group that it would mean the end of the mailing list. But news of our demise has been greatly exaggerated! Great to see that this forum still has currency for many people – and I intend to keep it going while ever that is the case. Work has kept me away from just about everything to do with birding for some months but it’s always good to catch up on discussions – and I hope to be birdier in 2061
I must thank Bill and Peter for carrying almost all the workload of birding-aus over the last few years, and particularly in 2015. Out of the team of moderators, they are really the ones to whom we owe the continuing existence of birding-aus. So a belated happy New Year to everyone. I hope this will be a good year for you all in every aspect. Cheers Russell Russell Woodford Birding-Aus Founder
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Truly, Facebook is being embraced by an increasingly larger number of birders. It is a wonderful way to make new friends and exchange information. We just returned from Kangaroo Island where most of our local birding info (we got all of our target birds) came from new (and some old) Facebook friends. We also believe in, and use âbooks.â Yes, the hard copy, printed things⊠our trusty, Dolby and Clarke as well Chris Baxterâs book, Birds of Kangaroo Island were by our sides. I will add that eBird is a phenomenal resource! The âExplore Dataâ section is wonderful! It must be seen and used to be believed. The âExplore A Regionâ is amazing, so much information right at our fingertips⊠lists and maps, dates and times… But for eBird to work at its best, people need to post their lists. So, remember to post your lists! Cheers, R. Bruce Richardson On Jan 5, 2016, at 12:59 PM, Peter Shute < pshute@nuw.org.au> wrote:
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Membership of the birding-aus mailing list doesn’t seem to be declining, Philip – still growing, I think. What’s changed is the number of postings. Jenny mentioned the trip reports, but what I’ve noticed is the vagrant alerts. A vagrant that would once have generated dozens of postings the same day it was reported, is sometimes never even mentioned here now, although these reports seem to be returning to some extent. Requests for help with identification have moved to Facebook in a big way, probably because of the ease of posting photos. As for correcting mistakes, I think all that’s lacking at times is diplomacy. I should know, I’ve been guilty of it enough times. Peter Shute Sent from my iPad
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578, if you don’t mind. It seems to be growing by about one per day. If anyone’s interested in joining that group, search for “birding-aus” in Facebook, and submit a join request. Peter Shute Sent from my iPad
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I am confused about this topic. What is the decline that people are writing about? Has someone explained that. Does this mean that membership numbers are reducing? I can’t imagine how Facebook can take its place. I hate Facebook. It is constantly telling me I have friends that I have no knowledge of…… I think BA is very useful. As for people correcting mistakes, well that is important in some cases, as if not corrected they get perpetuated. And communication is important. Philip
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Like Kim, I am not a Facebook user. So for those of us that donât use that form of social media, what is being posted to Facebook (and not B-A) that I am missing? Regards Alastair Let’s hope Russ is reading all this good stuff ! —–Original Message—– Kim Sterelny Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 2:18 PM Hi Folks I. I am not a facebook user and I find this list immensely helpful and informative. Whenever I have need advise I have got it, and its been informed and detailed. I am very grateful to Russell and any others who have kept it in being. 2. Obviously, there have been the odd thread (perhaps even this one) that have gone on beyond their best-before date. But the subject line usually gives those away, and one can just delete them. 3. Equally obviously, there are a few “trigger issues” (bird banding + a couple of others) which arose passions and hence traffic with an unfavourable signal to noise ratio. I am astounded that (eg) posting trip reports has generating flaming responses, and am very sorry to learn that. Nothing remotely like that has even happened to me (even when I defended my cat ownership – a potential trigger issue). Some disagreement sure, but nothing at all lacking in respect. So armed with my trusty delete button, I say “long live birding-aus”, and thanks for the advice, expertise and good will I have experienced (and the blogs with the fantastic photos: keep posting those links), and I’ll just edit into electronic oblivion anything else. Kim
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Let’s hope Russ is reading all this good stuff ! —–Original Message—– Kim Sterelny Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 2:18 PM Hi Folks I. I am not a facebook user and I find this list immensely helpful and informative. Whenever I have need advise I have got it, and its been informed and detailed. I am very grateful to Russell and any others who have kept it in being. 2. Obviously, there have been the odd thread (perhaps even this one) that have gone on beyond their best-before date. But the subject line usually gives those away, and one can just delete them. 3. Equally obviously, there are a few “trigger issues” (bird banding + a couple of others) which arose passions and hence traffic with an unfavourable signal to noise ratio. I am astounded that (eg) posting trip reports has generating flaming responses, and am very sorry to learn that. Nothing remotely like that has even happened to me (even when I defended my cat ownership – a potential trigger issue). Some disagreement sure, but nothing at all lacking in respect. So armed with my trusty delete button, I say “long live birding-aus”, and thanks for the advice, expertise and good will I have experienced (and the blogs with the fantastic photos: keep posting those links), and I’ll just edit into electronic oblivion anything else. Kim
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Bill, The current number of BA Facebook members is around 570. Carl Clifford
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Hi John, No, the trolls on BA don’t just tackle women. I have had a few scraps with one or two. They don’t worry me at all, I have even enjoyed some of the bouts I have had with the more intelligent amongst them. Perhaps the main cause of the “decline” of BA, ls the sheer number of australian birding sites on FB. Every person and their pelican can set up a FB page, whereas, setting and maintaining a mailing list/news group takes a lot of effort and time. Carl Clifford
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Hi Folks I. I am not a facebook user and I find this list immensely helpful and informative. Whenever I have need advise I have got it, and its been informed and detailed. I am very grateful to Russell and any others who have kept it in being. 2. Obviously, there have been the odd thread (perhaps even this one) that have gone on beyond their best-before date. But the subject line usually gives those away, and one can just delete them. 3. Equally obviously, there are a few “trigger issues” (bird banding + a couple of others) which arose passions and hence traffic with an unfavourable signal to noise ratio. I am astounded that (eg) posting trip reports has generating flaming responses, and am very sorry to learn that. Nothing remotely like that has even happened to me (even when I defended my cat ownership â a potential trigger issue). Some disagreement sure, but nothing at all lacking in respect. So armed with my trusty delete button, I say “long live birding-aus”, and thanks for the advice, expertise and good will I have experienced (and the blogs with the fantastic photos: keep posting those links), and I’ll just edit into electronic oblivion anything else. Kim
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I am sorry to read emails like that from Jenny. However, whatever one writes or says, there is always a miserable pedant who has to put you right (and I can be quite pedantic myself), or tell you you are up the wrong tree. Just bin them; life’s too short to spend time getting upset by these misery-mees. Myself I haven’t posted much to BA for a long time – too busy, too preoccupied, enjoying life too much, and I can’t remember if I posted somethng on my recent week spent at Mornington in the Kimberleys, surveying at waterholes for finches, pigeons, parrots and quail. A great week it was too with super people there, all highly committed and doing good work. Very impressive all round. And lots of fabulous views of Purple-crowned Fairy-wrens, Buff-sided Robins and a mixed bag of finches, including Gouldians. This is the sort of volunteering it is worthwhile for retirees to do. The country is beautiful, and the Broome Bird Observatory is a great place to stay before and after visiting Mornington. And you can camp at the gorges along the way. We were there in mid September so most of the tourists had gone as I was told the Gibb River Road is now like Sydney’s Rocks at weekends. Not conducive for good birding. So, please everyone continue your good work for BA – particularly those who make it function smoothly. That’s another great volunteer activity. I’ve learnt a lot via BA in my earlier days birding in Australia – it is a particularly useful and reliable source of information when planning trips both in Australia and overseas. Thanks to everyone who has in the past contributed and will continue to do so. Penny, Gloucester NSW
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Just to qualify, by ‘robust response’ I meant a reply that disagreed with me without being very roundabout, certainly nothing that has made me angry or made me think less of the poster. What you report is obviously in a different league. John Leonard
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Hi Jen, Can’t imagine anyone having been rude to you – they’d not have the courage to do so to your face. So sorry about that. Indeed, I also have had some great benefits by reading trip reports on birding.aus, especially in earlier days with so much to learn. Not posted much for a while, tend to reply direct to people seeking info…I ought to copy the list in, I realise. It really is a wonderful service
Thanks Russ and team. Hope to bump into you again, Jenny, binos in hand. Kind regards, Peter Madvig —– Original Message —– Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 10:07 AM
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Sent from my iPad I’m not that fussed that some material is being submitted elsewhere. My concern is that it’s being submitted in so many other places that it’s difficult to keep up with it. As well, postings are often duplicated in several Facebook groups, so the responses are also scattered. Birding-aus does allow jpg files to be posted, as of early 2015. The total message size is limited to about 200KB, but moderators can let through bigger ones at their discretion. Peter Shute
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As of right now, there are 1,160 members of the email subscription list, Lawrie. Obviously there’s a range of activity levels there. I’m not sure of the membership of the various Facebook groups, but I suspect they have a larger membership. Bill On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Lawrie Conole < lconole@gmail.com> wrote:
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I am a bit surprised that Jenny has been subjected to any sort of nasty response. I can only surmise that most of it has been private mail because I’m sure the moderators on b-a do a reasonably thorough job of cutting out any sort of abuse. They have, often to my surprise, certainly cut out some of my own what I thought were fairly innocuous comments. I have sometimes raised a few contentious points or queries but even they rarely slipped through the net. I have been a subscriber to b-a since the early 90’s and have always been grateful to Russ and others for the service they provide and would urge you all to keep it going. Some information that used to come through b-a is now being transferred to other media and I think this is a pity because not all birders use some of those other feeds and the info fails to reach as comprehensive a list of birders as it used to. It has become much more time consuming to flick through facebook, twitter, etc, as well as b-a. I guess one reason for the change is that the other feeds carry pictures easily whereas b-a is limited to mostly just text and by the no attachment rule imposed some years ago. Don’t worry about the whingeing trolls Jenny, maybe they need to get a life. Just keep up your good work, we are all with you. Tony. —–Original Message—– Jenny Spry Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 9:37 AM Hi all, I agree totally that Facebook is useless for archive searching and much good information is going to be lost. Birding-Aus has been an invaluable resource for me over the years and I hope I have sometimes provided help to others. And yes, it is sad to see the demise of the road trip reports. Having said all that I don’t submit to Birding Aus any more because of all the “trolls” that used to contact me complaining that: I had spelt a word wrong That I actually didn’t know what I was talking about That going on a twitch was a waste of the worlds limited resources That keeping a year list/life list was not in the spirit of birding Etc etc etc Sadly the above comments were usually couched in words meant to demean or cause discomfort. So, on Fb I can screen out people who make these types of comment or make tasteless attempts at humour and my enjoyment of communicating with fellow birders has increased because I no longer fear I am going to be attacked. If Birding-Aus had a strong commitment to banning abusive mail, and had a place I could forward abusive mail that had been sent to me privately that would see the sender banned, I would love to come back. I could even submit a report of my latest 2 day 1600 km road dash to see the Paradise Shelduck that would have included the contact details for accommodation at Culburra and where the best food in town was. cheers Jenny http://jenniferspryausbirding.blogspot.com.au/
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Hi John and B-A, In the context of this discussion I think the phrase “robust responses” could have something to do with the problem. Maybe it is all in the interpretation, and how the receiver feels about getting “robust responses”. Oh, and please don’t read any of the following as a general comment on the 99% of wonderful and very interesting B-A contributors, the people currently in this thread – this is for the 1% who do act as trolls, and so far they have not joined in. If I am sent a “robust response” in public I am unlikely to make another post so as to avoid a second such response. When it is sent to me in private I feel especially threatened; I had one case where I replied to the sender requesting that he never contact me again and his reply was that that was not possible because he sent so many emails he would never be able to remember who had asked him not to send emails; and that was when I dropped out of B-A. Sigh. In general it is interesting to me that “sledging” and “robust communication” are now seen as being acceptable forms of communication. And I do think that there is a gender difference (not “sexist”) in how communications are sent and received. Male to male “sledging” and “robust communication” seems, to me anyway, to be a form of verbal jousting, a challenge to be met and engaged with. When it is male to female, for me anyway, it is an attack. When it is female to male it seems, to me anyway that, by the “trolls”, the woman will be branded as a “F***king Witch”. Maybe you are right, maybe trolls do only attack women, or perhaps when the trolls attack men it is read as just “robust communication” or “sledging”. Who knows. So much in communication styles have changed and possibly (probably) over the decades I have not changed with them. I will try putting up a few trip reports again but should I get a “sledging” or “robust communication” in private I will post the offending email on B-A and drop out again. I am going to drop out of the thread now before I attract a troll (smile). cheers Jenny On 5 January 2016 at 10:44, John Leonard < calyptorhynchus@gmail.com> wrote:
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For trip reports anywhere in the world, try: http://www.cloudbirders.com/tripreport 414 for Australia just now. The month filter is pretty handy. Click on a country and you get a small graph that shows how many reports were recorded in each month of the year, which is also pretty handy when you’re figuring out somewhere you don’t know at all.
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Jenny, I hope you and others do return to making contributions to BA. I’d love to hear about your 2-day road trip to Culburra, for instance. For me, the value of BA is the ability of contributors to share their knowledge about birds and bird-watching. Sometimes there are great in-depth discussions on a broad range of topics which you wouldn’t find elsewhere because other forums don’t provide that opportunity (word limits or formats). As a community, we have a broad range of expertise that is not just limited to birds and birding, which some of us are willing to share with others. Of course, there is also the invaluable archival value of this information that others have commented on. I hope all that continues. I have belonged to a number of online discussion groups (not just limited to birds) and I have to say that BA is the most successful of them all in terms of sharing information and promoting further discussion. Of course, BA is not perfect and is open to abuse. I have no time for sledging, “birdy politics” and grandstanding, and it is unfortunate that these behaviours sometimes exist on BA and others are deterred from contributing to BA because of them. I think that the BA moderators have been extremely good at minimising this behaviour over the years but, of course, some occasionally slip through and moderators have no control over abusive emails being sent directly to individual subscribers. I think it would be a very sad day if and when BA closed down. Kind regards, Stephen Stephen Ambrose Ryde, NSW —–Original Message—– Jenny Spry Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 10:07 AM Hi all, I agree totally that Facebook is useless for archive searching and much good information is going to be lost. Birding-Aus has been an invaluable resource for me over the years and I hope I have sometimes provided help to others. And yes, it is sad to see the demise of the road trip reports. Having said all that I don’t submit to Birding Aus any more because of all the “trolls” that used to contact me complaining that: I had spelt a word wrong That I actually didn’t know what I was talking about That going on a twitch was a waste of the worlds limited resources That keeping a year list/life list was not in the spirit of birding Etc etc etc Sadly the above comments were usually couched in words meant to demean or cause discomfort. So, on Fb I can screen out people who make these types of comment or make tasteless attempts at humour and my enjoyment of communicating with fellow birders has increased because I no longer fear I am going to be attacked. If Birding-Aus had a strong commitment to banning abusive mail, and had a place I could forward abusive mail that had been sent to me privately that would see the sender banned, I would love to come back. I could even submit a report of my latest 2 day 1600 km road dash to see the Paradise Shelduck that would have included the contact details for accommodation at Culburra and where the best food in town was. cheers Jenny http://jenniferspryausbirding.blogspot.com.au/
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G’day all Jenny Spry maintains an excellent blog at jenniferspryausbirding.blogspot.com.au full of interesting trip reports. It is also Google searchable unlike Facebook posts. Who else does this? I did one for my time in Tanzania but not generally ( http://bukobasteve.blogspot.com.au/). Cheers Steve Clark Hamilton, Vic On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:44 AM, John Leonard < calyptorhynchus@gmail.com> wrote:
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Hi Jenny I am astonished and saddened to hear of your BA experiences. I have been a reader and contributor to BA for 20 years, and in that time have made my views known on a number of topics, but during all that time I have not received a single email of an abusive nature. (There have been a few robust responses to my contributions, but only sent to the group as a whole). Is it that trolls only target women? Anyway, I’m sorry we do not now have your contributions because of his harassment. John Leonard
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I think the biggest downfall for Facebook is that there are no trip reports anymore. Birding Aus was/is a great resource for info on past bird sightings as per trips. In years to come ‘new’ birders won’t have up to date detailed info. Steve Roderick.
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Sorry – I am referring to birding-aus not Birdlife Australia. Steve On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 3:15 PM, Peter Shute < pshute@nuw.org.au> wrote:
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I assume you mean birding-aus, not Birds Australia or Birdlife Australia. I’ve found that it is possible to search the Facebook Groups from within Facebook itself, but I don’t think Google will return any results – can anyone confirm that? The problem is that you first need to know which Facebook group to search, and there are dozens of them now dedicated to Australian birding, and probably many I don’t know about. So fragmentation is one problem too. As to whether the postings will even be there when you look, people can delete their own postings, along with all the replies, as can group owners, so maybe or maybe not. There’s no doubt there are less messages here now since a year or two ago, but it appears to have stabilised at this lower level of usage, rather than be in terminal decline. Time will tell. One benefit of the drift to Facebook has been that many of the discussions that were considered off-topic or controversial have drifted there too. Discussions here have degenerated into arguments a lot less recently as a result, which may result in people remaining subscribers. It’s probably possible to set up archives of the Facebook group discussions. You could direct Facebook’s emailed notifications to an archive similar to birding-aus’s, but when I suggested this a while ago, other Facebook users reacted in horror at the possibility of their conversations being archived. It seems the ability to delete postings is a major attraction there. Peter Shute Sent from my iPad
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Ideally, post to both, I guess is the answer! It wouldn’t take very long to copy a Facebook post and put it on Birding-Aus so that it is there for the future, but reaches a wider audience these days probably on Facebook. On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 11:56 AM, Bill Stent < billstent@gmail.com> wrote:
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Couldn’t agree more with both of you. —–Original Message—– Sent: Monday, January 4, 2016 11:56 AM Cc: Birding-Aus I agree, Steve. The various Facebook pages are great for showing off photos (I’m a show-off, I admit) but searching on them for past information is just impossible. Bill On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Steve Clark < bukoba.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
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I agree, Steve. The various Facebook pages are great for showing off photos (I’m a show-off, I admit) but searching on them for past information is just impossible. Bill On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Steve Clark < bukoba.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
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