The Gull was still there this morning bathing in a puddle near the gate. The Semi-palmated Plover was seen yesterday on the beach near the Port. Tony Palliser arrived back from NW India this morning with numerous photos of heuglini Lesser Black-backed Gulls so we will be able to compare our bird with those taken same day! In the meantime here are some opinions from the UK.
Mike Carter 30 Canadian Bay Road Mount Eliza VIC 3930 Tel (03) 9787 7136
There used to be a small population of Kelp Gull in Louisiana. They hybridised with American Herring Gull Larus smithsonianus there (Dittmann & Cardiff 2005 Birding 37 (3): 266-276).
Nikolas
Kelp Gulls have hybridized with American Herring Gulls and Western Gulls (??) where their ranges overlap somewhere in North America. I forget the details.
If it is a hybrid I would think that it was probably born in the Northern Hemisphere.
Cheers,
D.
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Hi everyone,
Here’s a link to the pdf version of the same article Mick so kindly provided earlier:
http://archive.org/download/bulletinofbritis122brit/bulletinofbritis122brit.pdf
Warning: the file is quite large; 25.4MB!
At least the tables etc. are not that hard to translate. Having said that, it’s up to more experienced gull specialists to make the most of it.
I’ll keep you posted if new comments arise here in Finland.
Cheers, -Harry, indeed “the Finnish contact”
2013/1/23 Mick Roderick
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Well actually there is an overlap between the breeding range of Cape Gull( has a black eye) and wintering Baltic Gull on the southern Mozambique coast.
Cheers Jeff.
Agree, but I thought I’d put that bit of lateral thinking out there anyway.
Cheers, Stephen
G’day Stephen,
An interesting hypothesis, but I wonder at the combined probabilities of first off a Baltic/Heuglin’s finishing up in SA and secondly hybridizing with a Kelp/Cape Gull then finally the offspring finding its way to Broome and being seen by a birder. They are probably rather long odds I would suggest.
Cheers Jeff.
I’m clearly not experienced or qualified enough to identify this bird, but I have been following this discussion with interest.
What I have discerned from the discussions so far is that the bird in the photo does not fit neatly into what we would expect for a single species. I have also gathered that the experts seem to be leaning towards one of three species: Heuglin’s Gull (Larus heuglini), Lesser Black-backed Gull (L. fuscus) and Kelp Gull (L. dominicanus).
A possible identification, combining peoples’ comments about the gull with Greg’s helpful link to an explanation of ring species (thanks Greg) is a heuglini/fuscus hybrid. But Jeff and some of the northern hemisphere gull experts are concerned that this bird has some features that don’t match those of Heuglin’s or Lesser-backed Gulls. It has been further suggested that the bird is a Kelp Gull (L. dominicanus), but there is still a lot of unease with this identification.
Is it possible, therefore, that at a Heuglin’s or Lesser Black-backed Gull (or a hybrid of the two) has strayed or has been blown out of arctic waters, or even carried by ship, to the southern African or South American coastline and interbred with a Kelp Gull, and a resultant hybrid has made it to the WA coastline? It’s just a thought, unlikely to be correct, and which may be supported or rejected if DNA can be extracted from feather pulp, as suggested by Jeff.
Stephen Ambrose Ryde, NSW
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Gooday all on BA
For those of us who may be quietly following this very interesting but confusing thread on the Gull at Broome, there is a small bit of information on Wikipedia that might help. Yes I know it is not very scientific and the information may even be out of date. Just type “ring species” into the Google and enter Ring species – Wikipedia. It is not much but it may introduce something of what the experts are on about and why they are so interested in this bird. Whether the Gulls are or are not a ring species is unimportant, this little bit of information and the diagram may help some people.
A little bit of general discussion by an expert for the non expert birding community on this topic may be helpful.
Greg Little
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What I really like about all this debate is that with all the doubts about the gull’s taxonomy nobody can tick it.
Tony
G’day Philip,
You have covered the Gull DNA issues thoroughly here but I recon it would still be worth grabbing a feather or two, especially if it settles down and starts moulting more aggressively, would be silly to leave them sitting on the ground and second guess the likelihood of them being of any value. There has been a lot of work done on Gull genetics and I suspect a number of Gull experts in Europe and elsewhere would be interested to know which migrant species is actually capable of reaching Australia’s western side.
Cheers Jeff.
Thanks Jeremy,
That bird certainly does have a week bill by Kelp Gull standards, but the bird still looks essentially like a chunky Kelp Gull. Note that the loral point of feathers onto the bill is much more truncated than the Broome bird, its a short bill on a largish skull. The bird is facing away so cant really determine structure that well but the impression is typically Kelp Gull thick set. The flying image looks to show a reasonably wide trailing edge. The small bill is the most distinctive feature on this bird.
Cheers Jeff.
Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2013 2:02 PM Cc: Jeff Davies; Dimitris Bertzeletos; Birding Australia
I could find two photos of Kelp Gull’s in Madagascar if these help (actually 4, but 2 were identified as vagrant subspecies)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/steveblain/6031504599/
http://www.wildmadagascar.com/images/bgs/birds-madagascar-kelp-gull-02.jpg
Jeremy
Hi Jeff et al,
For what it’s worth when there are only images to go by, there is some (albeit clunky) info on melisandae at the website below, including bill measurements (exposed culmen length, depth at gonys, depth at nostril…if I’m reading it correctly):
http://archive.org/stream/bulletinofbritis122brit/bulletinofbritis122brit_dj vu.txt
Just use your find text option on “melisandae”.
Incidentally, I think Dimitris is based in Asutralia and Harry Nystrom is the Finnish contact.
Mick
________________________________ Australia’ Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2013 1:12 PM
A good move Dimitris and many thanks for the input you have already coordinated from Finland, it has been very valuable input for all of us to take on board with this difficult bird. I will be very keen to see what others on birdforum have to say. Especially keen to hear from anyone with experience or photos of ssp melisandrae.
Cheers Jeff.
Thanks Mick,
And yes I mixed up some of the personnel in this discussion thanks for putting me straight.
Cheers Jeff.
Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2013 1:29 PM
Hi Jeff et al,
For what it’s worth when there are only images to go by, there is some (albeit clunky) info on melisandae at the website below, including bill measurements (exposed culmen length, depth at gonys, depth at nostril…if I’m reading it correctly):
http://archive.org/stream/bulletinofbritis122brit/bulletinofbritis122brit_djvu.txt
Just use your find text option on “melisandae”.
Incidentally, I think Dimitris is based in Asutralia and Harry Nystrom is the Finnish contact.
Mick
Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2013 1:12 PM
A good move Dimitris and many thanks for the input you have already coordinated from Finland, it has been very valuable input for all of us to take on board with this difficult bird. I will be very keen to see what others on birdforum have to say. Especially keen to hear from anyone with experience or photos of ssp melisandrae.
Cheers Jeff.
Just a note from the moderators. So much text has been requoted in this thread that it’s now exceeding the 50KB limit imposed by the list server. This means that replies are having to be approved by the moderators even for unmoderated list members.
If you want your responses to come through quickly, please trim some of the quoted text off the bottom of your emails.
Peter Shute
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I could find two photos of Kelp Gull’s in Madagascar if these help (actually 4, but 2 were identified as vagrant subspecies)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/steveblain/6031504599/
http://www.wildmadagascar.com/images/bgs/birds-madagascar-kelp-gull-02.jpg
Jeremy
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Hi Jeff et al, For what it’s worth when there are only images to go by, there is some (albeit clunky) info on melisandae at the website below, including bill measurements (exposed culmen length, depth at gonys, depth at nostril…if I’m reading it correctly): http://archive.org/stream/bulletinofbritis122brit/bulletinofbritis122brit_djvu.txt Just use your find text option on “melisandae”. Incidentally, I think Dimitris is based in Asutralia and Harry Nystrom is the Finnish contact. Mick
________________________________ Sent: Wednesday, 23 January 2013 1:12 PM
A good move Dimitris and many thanks for the input you have already coordinated from Finland, it has been very valuable input for all of us to take on board with this difficult bird. I will be very keen to see what others on birdforum have to say. Especially keen to hear from anyone with experience or photos of ssp melisandrae.
Cheers Jeff.
A good move Dimitris and many thanks for the input you have already coordinated from Finland, it has been very valuable input for all of us to take on board with this difficult bird. I will be very keen to see what others on birdforum have to say. Especially keen to hear from anyone with experience or photos of ssp melisandrae.
Cheers Jeff.
Hello all again,
Just for completeness sake, wouldn’t it be prudent to ensure that this bird isn’t a Kelp Gull? Whatever it is it is certainly on the male bulky side of intermedius and fuscus if it is one.
I have posted a link to the images of the birds on birdforum.net which several larophiles visit frequently. This is the tread: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=2644996#post2644996
All the best,
D.
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Hi Chris, Welcome to this public discussion that at this stage lacks the vitriol eventually generated by the private discussion re that previous claim of a Lesser Black-backed Gull in Broome on 20 July 2005. I had just dug out my files on that bird with the intention of contacting Hendrik Reers to resurrect that report and submit to BARC. Hendrik said that he would do it without assistance from us but that hasn’t happened. I guess that as so often happens with overseas visitors, it would appear that he lost motivation having returned to Germany where Lesser Black-backed Gulls are ho-hum. So if this reaches you Hendrik, please make contact. You may be interested in learning the details of this bird which has been seen by several observers and is even better documented (over 1,000 photos) than your sighting. Hendrik sent me 10 photos of that bird which closely resembles this bird except that the primaries are not so trashed. That dispute was centred on ruling out Kelp Gull which all but one of us did! This time the dispute revolves around finer details of subspecific identity with now no serious claims that this is a Kelp Gull. So the submission to BARC at species level is relatively straight forward. One thing that that debate didn’t address was the rarity of Kelp Gull in Western Australia. Maybe it is my failing memory but I have been surprised to learn that there may be fewer than a dozen records mostly in the south of course. More northerly records should perhaps be subject to review
Mike Carter 30 Canadian Bay Road Mount Eliza VIC 3930 Tel (03) 9787 7136
Visa states ” All in all, this individual seems to have so many “minor faults” that I would like to familiarize myself with the arguments that state this cannot be a dominicanus.”
I would suggest the bill is way too narrow for a kelp Gull, also the white trailing edge is equally too narrow especially at the inner primaries, and the degree of primaries extending beyond the tail tip compared to length of tail beyond tertials is too long allowing for this bird having lost its longest tertial. Olsen describes ssp melisandrae of Kelp Gull from Madagascar as having a smaller and slimmer bill than Cape Gull, but this Broome bird’s bill would represent an extremely slimmer Kelp Gull indeed. However I admit to not having ever seen an image of melisandrae, can’t find one anywhere.
Cheers Jeff.
A very good suggestion Chris which should be put to George Swann in Broome, cheers Jeff.
Ok everyone, time to put the kettle on for a cup of tea and calm down. Nobody should be embarrassed by how this bird is eventually identified because it is a very difficult individual, so let’s take stock of the awkward bits.
1- the bird has a somewhat hefty bill and that doesn’t scream out fuscus. 2- it’s a genuinely dark bird, this wasn’t easy to work out from the earliest photos, but Rohan’s images clinch this, probably too dark even for typical nom heuglini. 3- the wing is dark but black features on Ps5 and 6 are easily discerned against greyer rest of feather, not really what you would expect on a fully adult fuscus, but might not be impossible. 4- Rohan’s dorsal shot shows the remnants of a small white mirror on inside web of P9, apparently 5% to 16%(KM Olsen) of fuscus can have this especially males, this sort of works with the bill size. White mirror on P9 is more common for ssp intermedius which I have to say this bird looks a hell of a lot like according to all of these awkward features and ignoring the extremely reduced likelihood of that form ever reaching Australia. 5- this bird has dark tips to under-primary coverts and a mid-tone eye, both features of immaturity in conflict with everything else shown by this bird. Could the less than black inner webs of Ps 5 and 6 contrasting with black outer feature consequently also indicate a younger adult fuscus, just throwing ideas up in the air here. Would seem odd for a younger adult to show mirror on P9 but that may be irrelevant. Fuscus is known to mature a year ahead of the other Lesser Black Backed forms. 6- The bill is very bright yellow, this probably works better for fuscus than heuglini.
So we are sort of left with an “intermedius-like” younger adult? fuscus. This bird is definitely not easy and will probably be solved in Europe rather than Australia.
Cheers Jeff.
Hello,
Here are the first comments from Finland after my rough translation. The comments are provided by Mr. Visa Rauste, who has studied gulls for several years (decades?) and has been on the national rarities committee for almost 20 years of which 11 as the chairman (until 2011, when he left the seat). Another person is also quoted, and the person is clearly stated. I will still try to forward the photos to some other laridists for further review, but to my knowledge the comments by Mr. Rauste are practically as competent as can be.
I’ll keep you posted if other comments emerge.
Visa’s comments:
*”First of all, the identification is very dependent on the accuracy of the white balance and correctness of the exposure of the images. If we go with the assumption that they are correct, the bird is definitely not a “normal heuglini”. The upperparts of a heuglini should never be that dark and they should show a clearer bluish tinge. On the other hand, it should be noted that the line between a heuglini and a fuscus is not as clear as sometimes is suggested. And because of that, there has not been much support in Europe and especially in Finland to draw a line between these two taxons to split them into two different species.
* *When it comes to the structure of the bird, it is to my opinion fuscus enough, but the structural difference between a fuscus and a heuglini is so small and more or less on the average that I wouldn’t give it much weight when identifying an individual as a distant rarity on the other side of the globe.
* *The moult is also better in line with fuscus, although I don’t have my own data collected of wintering birds. The interruption of the moult in the primaries at this time of the year in that way is not typical for either taxons but is the “personal solution” of the individual that is probably related to the otherwise extraordinary life phases of the bird.
* *A little disturbing feature comes to my mind regarding the photos: the iris of the bird is untypically dark for a fuscus, which almost always (especially during Summer) has a clear light yeallow iris. The iris should not show any or only slight spotting, when this individual shows it quite a lot: http://www.pbase.com/wildlifeimages/image/148413423 * * * *I also have to say that I don’t know anything about the gulls of the southern hemisphere, but I have to rely that the locals can identify and exclude them.”*
So has anyone tried to collect some genetic material from it? All you should need is a dropped feather, or a bit of gull crap or something and there would be a chance. It probably wouldn’t resolve anything quickly, but in the long term it might. I don’t get any strong impression it’s going to be easily resolved any other way….
Cheers, Chris.
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Hi Mike,
No, this is not an incredible way to argue because it wasn’t intended to be an experiment using the Broome gull as a ‘control’. I was just wondering if the NW India birds, in turn, can be used as a valid ‘control’ for the Broome bird. There has been a long discussion about these birds in India and apparently it still has not been resolved which taxa winter in NW India. So, yes, the Indian birds could be heuglini OR taimyrensis.
To the Broome bird: It still doesn’t look like a perfect L. f. fuscus to me for the reasons I discussed in previous mails. I know that some people favour L. f. fuscus, but to my knowledge a number of people besides me have made the case for L. f./h. heuglini, too. I agree that the bird is too dark for taimyrensis, which I suggested based on iris colour and bill shape. I am interested in the identification of this bird and contributed to it to my best knowledge.
BTW in case the bird will be proven to be a L. f. fuscus, I won’t be embarrassed at all.
Nikolas
Nikolas, what an incredible way to argue? It seems that you are saying that because you say that the Broome bird is heuglini that is what it is and any evidence leading to a contrary conclusion must be false. Surely the logical conclusion is that the Indian birds are paler than the Broome bird because they are heuglini as would be expected at that site whereas the Broome bird is fuscus as the colour and other factors suggest.
Mike Carter 30 Canadian Bay Road Mount Eliza VIC 3930 Tel (03) 9787 7136
You might be interested in some (admittedly poor) shots of heuglini and presumed barabensis I photographed in Sri Lanka at the end of December 2012 which can be seen here; http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=248501
The mantle colour of the heuglini there reminded me of graellsii. The presumed barabensis was paler still.
The Broome gull seems quite dark but not far removed from what I observed in heuglini and I don’t think that taxon can be excluded on mantle colour. It is certainly not as dark as I have been led to believe fuscus is (which is practically black). I would say that its bare parts seem a little brighter than I might expect on a northern hemisphere gull at this time of year – but they are starting to colour-up as my barabensis photo shows. I shall leave it to others to debate the finer points of wing-tip pattern etc.
Happy birding Ken Dorset UK
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Nice shots, Tony. Could your NW Indian birds be taimyrensis? That could explain that they are paler than the Broome bird…
Nikolas
P.S. From van Dijk et al. 2011 Dutch Birding:
“The lack of long-distance ring recoveries is one of the reasons for uncertainties and confusion about the wintering areas of Taimyr Gulls. Grant (1982) states that the wintering range is not known but quotes Vaurie (1965) who suggested the Caspian Sea as wintering area. Cramp & Simmons (1983) indicate that Taimyr Gulls spend the winter along the shores of the eastern Mediterranean, in the Caspian Sea area, along the Arabian Sea to western India, and partly also along coasts in eastern Africa. Glutz von Blotzheim & Bauer (1982) mention that Taimyr Gulls may winter in roughly the same area but clearly state that firm data like recoveries are lacking. Both sources assume that Taimyr Gulls migrate in a south-westerly direction towards the Indian Ocean. Possible confusion in these regions with, eg, Heuglin’s Gull L heuglini and Caspian Gull L cachinnans is one of the reasons for an unclear picture. In contrast, several more recent sources state that Taimyr Gulls migrate in a south-easterly direction towards the Pacific Ocean and that they spend the winter in coastal areas between Kamchatka, Russia, and Hainan, China. Il’icev & Zubakin (1990) mention that Taimyr Gulls breeding east of western Taimyr migrate in a south-easterly direction towards the Pacific. Kennerley et al (1995) indicate that almost all large white-headed gulls wintering in Hong Kong, China, are Taimyr Gulls and they mention two long-distance ring recoveries, both of birds which had migrated in a south-easterly direction towards the Pacific. Del Hoyo et al (1996) indicate that Taimyr Gulls spend the winter in the same area as shown by Cramp & Simmons (1983) but they state that birds breeding on eastern Taimyr winter along the north-western Pacific as well. In conclusion, not much is known about the precise wintering areas. We obtained new long-distance ring recoveries and the results are presented in this paper. We also present data on distribution and breeding biology and we give a description of the general appearance of adults, illustrated with photographs taken on Taimyr. It should be noted that Olsen & Larsson (2004) do not provide photographs of Taimyr Gull.”
Although van Dijk et al. present ring recoveries (n=6) only from the south-easterly route to the Pacific coast, they state the following in the discussion: “Recent sources indicate that gulls resembling Taimyr Gulls spend the winter in low numbers in southern Iran (Scott 2007) and Bahrain (Yésou & Hirschfeld 1997). The same may be true for the small number of unidentified large white-headed gulls seen at Okha, western India, described and depicted in Buchheim (2006).”
Hi everyone, Have just started to go through the images taken a few days ago in NW India and have begun uploaded them here
http://www.pbase.com/tony_palliser/gujurat_india
(select view at original size to see a larger file)
http://www.pbase.com/tony_palliser/image/148430367/original
Interestingly, these birds appear a little paler above than the images I saw taken by Rohan earlier. For the record I have attempted to take great care with colour contrast – given the importance of this when identifying gulls. That said I am not entirely sure that these birds are Heuglins’ Gull but this is what the books and various trips reports are saying they should be at this locality – namely Modhva Beach, Near Mandvi, Gujurat, India.
Regards, Tony