Interesting comment below from Ashwin about where the discussion of Victoria’s Lake Tutchewop Dowitcher is taking place. I assume “historic channels” means the birding-aus list? Where else is discussion taking place? I’ve seen plenty of discussion in the Victorian Birders Facebook group. Is there anywhere else? Facebook has the advantage that photos can be posted, but I’m wondering if there is any kind of archive being kept. I often can’t find a Facebook discussion just days after I last looked at it, let alone months or years. Is there a way to find them, or is this stuff just getting lost? And does it matter? Peter Shute Sent from my iPad > On 13 Nov 2014, at 5:03 am, Ashwin Rudder <noisypitta@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi all, > > I haven’t seen anything really up to date posted to b-a; most discussion > seems to have happened away from the historic channels. In summary: >
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I “liked” it a lot too Russ but couldn’t find that button either so will have to use antiquated text to say: Your efforts and the mail group are deeply appreciated here and many on list have contributed on and off line very kindly and helpfully to my enjoyment of travels in the natural world – and I hope in some small way I have been able to return the favour. Works for me! Graeme S
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Peter, I think that birding in Australia is pretty much fragmented anyway with birders finding their own way of keeping up to speed with developments and rarities, some of the options being: 1. Birding-Aus – can be useful at times but is probably outdated and needs to “adapt or die” as the recent events surrounding the Dowitcher sighting have shown. Used to be very good for trip reports but very few are posted these days. 2. Facebook – Has various private groups which you need to be a member of. The rapid dissemination of information, photos, identification, etc. was excellent for the recent Dowitcher sighting, which started off as an Asian Dowitcher seen on Friday and reported on Sunday on eBird, with some smart birders recognising that this was either a Short or Long-billed Dowitcher on Monday, and by the end of Tuesday the consensus was Long-billed Dowitcher following many photos and reports, and by Wednesday the bird had disappeared. The real time reporting on FB is excellent and important when in the field. 3. eBird – excellent for rare bird sightings and needs lists but does have some limitations regarding misidentification or poor data entry (e.g. the recent Red-browed Pardalote in Victoria) and relatively few birders submitting lists 4. WA Bird sightings – well they live in a different part of the world 5. Eremaea Birdline reports – generally very good but there are limitations and subjective reporting as others have highlighted, the weekly reporting to Birding Aus is illegible 6. Birdlife Australia – good to read about historical sightings but not much use if you are chasing birds 7. Other birding data bases – never get any reports published and difficult to search records At the end of the day birders will move to where they can get the best results, in the mean time we have to follow many disjointed channels of communication to keep up to date. Regards, Bruce
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Hi all, Most people are aware, as has been highlighting in this discussion, that recently a few of us started a group on Facebook called “Australian Twitchers”. This group has been a phenomenal success as it is instant, allows conversation/discussion, sharing of pictures and I even put up a 2 minute of the Long-billed Dowitcher feeding from Monday night. I think the debate of what is better, or who likes what and blah blah online ads this and that is actually pointless in this regard. For those that weren’t on Facebook, you missed all of this information that came pouring in constantly. As mentioned in another email, by the time Long-billed Dowitcher was on BA, I was already halfway to Lake Tutchewop thanks to the instantness of Facebook. Because such a portion of the twitching community is on Facebook the reality is that the conversation and instant reports will be started here. Facebook was vital in the discussion of the LB Dowitcher discussing things such as where the currently was “bird has moved to NE corner” etc. These are instant luxuries that make twitching a little bit easier – especially on tough birds and situations such as that. On that Dowitcher Monday, I had Mike Carter on the phone a few times and I was pretty much relaying to him all of the posts and discussions from Facebook and some of the information from when we were actually in the field. If I throw Eremaea Birdlines into this discussion – quite often reports are shared online through Facebook way before published on this site also. Instead of shaming and feeling negative towards Facebook, those that are really twitchy and want to chase every bird, you’ve got a much better chance of learning about vagrants first thanks to Facebook. To take a few examples the following birds were posted and shared on Facebook before BA and Eremaea in the last few weeks – Long-billed Dowitcher, South Island Pied Oystercatcher, Eastern Yellow Wagtail (tschutschensis), pretty much anything of interest in Victoria (can’t speak for other states!) and even way back to the North Lakes Little Bittern. I’m pretty sure I had booked my flights to Brisbane before that made an appearance on other birding platforms. It’s just a ‘new’ technology that twitches should be rejoicing in. I can only imagine what twitching was like before mobile phones….. Elect whichever online platform you wish to use, but I can assure you that I will relying on Facebook for the fastest updates. All the best fellas and fellarettes! On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Peter Shute < pshute@nuw.org.au> wrote: — All the best, James Mustafa 0400 951 517 http://www.jamesmustafajazzorchestra.com
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Good point about the growth of birding related Facebook pages in Australia, Peter. This can only result in the widespread dissemination of ornithological data and the possible loss of much of it to science. Sic transit gloria mundi. Carl Clifford
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In among some quotes from Russell and Ashwin below are some disjointed comments from me: That was a response to my call for comments on the idea of posting a daily or weekly summary of Facebook group “comments” here. This would just be a list of the initial comments which start the conversations, not any of the “replies” (which is what Facebook calls the rest of each conversation) because to include it all would probably just be annoying. But if any Facebook group members don’t want their comments duplicated here then that’s a bad idea. It would be very hard to automate the digests but exclude postings from people who don’t want them included. Also, as someone in the Facebook discussion pointed out, lots of the comments are meaningless if the accompanying photo is omitted. I started this thread because it’s obvious that some information is now barely reaching birding-aus. It’s a bad thing that certain information has become hard to find, so I think this is very relevant to birding. It’s not just quick access to the latest news that’s a concern to me, it’s access to historical information. It’s been pointed out that Facebook Groups do have a search function, although it doesn’t seem to be available in the iPad/iPhone app (Android the same?), so it’s not easily available to everyone. I know one can use the web site on a phone, but it’s really tiny and painful. I don’t think the content is searchable via Google, and of course it’s only available to Facebook members. Trying to channel it all back to birding-aus is pointless. Aside from the fact that there have always been other regional lists and forums, it’s obvious that the advantages of Facebook to those who use it mean it’s here to stay. What’s the answer then? If regular digests of Facebook stuff being posted here is unacceptable, perhaps just the posting of links that might be of particular interest? James Mustafa is has already done this recently. Or do we only need an index somewhere explaining which are the relevant groups and lists to get information from? Can someone tell be which Facebok grups are relevant to Australian birding? They seem to be springing up all over the place, and the only way to know which ones are worth reading is to hear about them. I first became concerned about this when the AGP was at Point Cook in Victoria earlier this year. I’m not sure if it even got mentioned here before it was gone, because most of the discussion was on Facebook. True. If it turns out not to be practical to allow photos to be posted here, is the posting of links to Facebook photos here a useful substitute? I suspect Facebook’s sudden popularity among birders is more to do with easy access via smartphones, not its suitability for the job. It would be a pity to lose years of archives just because we stumbled into something new almost by accident. Peter Shute
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Well said, Russell. One thing about BA, is that you don’t have to put up with ads and “recommended” posts and such, things that cheese me off. I use Facebook. BA does not have all the bells and whistles of Facebook, but then I have all ways preferred quick and dirty. Car Clifford
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Well I for one want b-a to continue for some years yet. I’m not into those other social media gadgets and don’t wish to be – I can barely operate the very basic mobile thingo I’ve got as it is, that is if and when it is ever switched on – only in dire emergencies. I guess that means I miss out on some birding info but I’d hate to be one of those gadgetophiles permanently texting away, rudely ignoring real people in their close vicinity. I have no wish to be in continual tedious contact with everyone else on the planet. Birding-aus has served me well over the years and I’ll continue to use it. Thank you Russ for setting it up and keeping it going. BTW, I heard about the Semi-palmated Plover at Pelican Point by landline telephone – excellent. We got it. Tony. —–Original Message—– robert morris Sent: Friday, 14 November 2014 12:33 AM Cc: Ashwin Rudder; birding-aus@birding-aus.org Russell I liked your post – but couldn’t find the button to click to tell you! Lol Rob Sent from my iPad reading Usenet newsgroups??? resource. elsewhere. as vegetarians who eat fish. permission to do this.
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Brilliant, Russell…. I use a variety of channels for a variety of reasons. Cheers and Happy Birding, John Tongue Devonport, Tas. On 14/11/2014, at 12:19 AM, Russell Woodford < rdwoodford@gmail.com> wrote:
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Russell I liked your post – but couldn’t find the button to click to tell you! Lol Rob Sent from my iPad
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Someone on the Facebook discussion of this same topic said they didn’t want their posts pushed to birding-aus. An interesting point. Facebook owns everything that is posted there, but as far as I can tell there is no *technical* barrier to taking a feed from a FB group to Birding-Aus. Anyway, I am not about to do this!!! The amount of traffic on B-Aus is about right, and I don’t want flood subscribers with the conversations from Facebook. I like reading both forums, but I am glad I only have to run one of them (and Peter and Bill, the moderators, do most of that!) so I’m not about to hijack content from elsewhere. I agree that email is a bit of a generational thing (that’s the polite way of saying it’s for old people) and the new generation of bright young birders use social media instead. If I plan my exit perfectly, I should shuffle off this mortal coil at about the time that the few remaining Birding-Aus subscribers sit around in residential care wondering who Night Parr0t really was and thinking up some new comments about banding. That is, Birding-Aus and I should depart quietly together, by which time James Mustafa will be retired, and be the Australian record holder and the only one in the 1000 Club, and all the young birders of that age wonder why he STILL writes stuff on Facebook because nobody has used it for for, like, decades … I really value this community, because it is only the people who contribute that give it any value at all – but while it is nice to have Birding-Aus now, it will probably lose its relevance or usefulness, just as Facebook might. How many of us still sit up all night reading Usenet newsgroups??? Times change, tools and technologies change. People don’t change that much, but they naturally adopt the tools that suit them best. I thought Gestettner spirit masters were the best thing ever for teaching when I started my career. But there is little point hanging on to a technology just because you like the smell of the printing fluid
When it’s time to shut down Birding-Aus, there probably won’t be any subscribers left to notify. I hope that isn’t for a while yet. Russell Woodford Birding-Aus Founder On 13 November 2014 20:16, Ashwin Rudder < noisypitta@gmail.com> wrote:
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That makes Facebook’s alternative name “stalkbook” even more appropriate, or should that be “storkbook”….. Doesn’t everything that goes on facebook, including pictures, become the property of facebook and not the “owner” of the photos, etc? I will stick with B-A, even though Rusty is a blues man…
Yours in all things “green” John Harris BASc, GDipEd Director – Wildlife Experiences P/L Principal Zoologist/Ecologist Nature Photographer Wildlife Guide Croydon, Vic 0409 090 955 President, Field Naturalists Club of Victoria http://www.fncv.org.au —– Reply message —– Cc: “birding-aus@birding-aus.org” < birding-aus@birding-aus.org> Hi Peter, and others, John is right, the majority of the discussion has happened on facebook. Increasingly I think, there is a shift away from birding-aus for several reasons. An email list is a relatively slow way of disseminating information (much faster than past methods, but much slower than something like facebook). Most significantly, b-a suffers from not being able to handle image files. Almost all of the discussion on the dowitcher’s ID has come from people being able to post photos, add pointers to them, and talk very quickly, in much more of a conversational style than b-a allows. A video or two has also been posted. In terms of how easy it is to retrieve information on facebook: there is a search function that acts like a find tool in a Microsoft Word document (or similar), so it looks for any post containing that word, and then displays the entire thread. In essence, it is no different to searching the archives of birding-aus, although without any issues of having the subject line change halfway through a thread, which can make topics hard to follow here. Obviously, the shift to facebook further fragments the grapevine that the birding community relies on. However, increasing numbers of people, of all ages, have facebook and it really is very convenient. Birdline remains the premier rare bird telegraph page, while this page remains the best for in depth discussions. One of the great criticisms of facebook by social commentators is that it feed the instantaneous me-me-me! attitude of the yoof; ironically, this is exactly what’s needed for rare, twitchable birds, and that makes modern-day social media the best spot for twitchers. Cheers, Ashwin Rudder On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 8:37 AM, John Tongue < jspk@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
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Hi all, Perhaps this is digressing from a birdwatching topic, however it’s a somewhat meta topic on the value of birding-aus in 2014 and probably a discussion worth having. It’s a fact that those following b-a alone to find out about vagrants have been privy to a tiny fraction of the discussion on the location of this dowitcher, its ID features, the photos of it (in fact, you wouldn’t have seen them at all). By the time the first post to this page about the bird was made, the first car was already halfway to the site. And the first post to birdline wasn’t made until well over 12 hours after the debate on facebook had started. Say what you will about facebook, but it’s now the premier place for these discussions, and the fastest way of getting the word out. This is not to bad-mouth birding-aus. I think it’s an invaluable resource. It remains a far better place than facebook for trip reports (although these seem few and far between now). But it needs to find a way to remain relevant, and if that way isn’t as a noticeboard for sightings, then it’s worth noting here that there are better sites elsewhere. Lastly, a brief note on advertising. Google is free. Gmail is free, Google Maps, Youtube, and a series of other sites that many people here use on a daily basis, are free. Probably about a third of people using birding-aus use mobile phones running software by Google. All this is possible because that company makes money by the shedload from selling advertising space, and by knowing what you’re looking at. Facebook is no different, but it cops flak because the services it provides are not as fundamental just at the minute as those provided by Google. In essence, not using facebook on the basis of its data gathering policy, yet using Google-provided programs is the same as vegetarians who eat fish. Cheers, Ashwin Rudder On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 7:30 PM, Graeme Stevens < gestev45@hotmail.com> wrote:
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Probably diverting now well away from a birding thread guys and the debate about the pros and cons of the TwitFace era could get tiresome, but if you recall, a lot of people paid very large amounts of money for Facebook shares when it floated and now those shareholders want and expect a return. So where is that going to come from do you reckon? Advertising of course, and business analytics (knowing everything it can about its users to sell to whoever can use the data and will pay for it) – and it’s not alone there. It’s a public company and aint no charity! That doesn’t mean the functionality isn’t useful – just keep the eyes wide open? Graeme S
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I just ignore the ads. Never seen anything that I am interested in, or really applies to me. I seem to be immune to advertising. Carl Clifford
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It may be relevant to note that I read an article some months ago, in the finance pages that Facebook is now seen as an advertising business rather than a part of the IT industry. That is part of my reasoning for having nothing to do with them. Martin On Thursday, 13 November 2014, Carl Clifford < carlsclifford@gmail.com> wrote: — Martin Butterfield http://franmart.blogspot.com.au/
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Chris, FB does not have to steal your content. By posting, you have given them permission to do what they want with anything you post. Anyone who complains is only welching on the agreement they have made with FB. Carl Clifford
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Hi all, I agree with Chris that it’s largely not something to be concerned about unless you are a professional photographer whose main income source comes from photography, and in that case you likely aren’t going to put the photos on facebook to begin with, since you want to sell them at a later date. And it is always your call. It’s also worth bearing in mind that practically all companies that provide a platform for sharing things such as photos have a similar policy. So the chance of a photo being used by facebook to make them money is probably about as high as that Gmail or Microsoft will do the same with any email you’ve ever sent. Yet birding-aus persists. Finally, in the context that we are talking here: rare birds, the identification of such, and the coordination of twitches in pursuit of them, it’s not likely that the photos or videos that people are sharing are of the quality that would make them sellable. So to be honest, if I post a shot of the dowitcher asking for an ID, I am far more interested in getting that ID than worried about facebook taking it and making money off it. I was never going to sell that shot in the first place. Cheers, Ashwin On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Chris Sanderson < chris.sanderson@gmail.com> wrote:
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Hi Carl and everyone, This gets trotted out pretty regularly as a reason not to post anything on a variety of platforms, including Facebook. I would suggest the idea that Facebook has any interest in your particular bird photo is pretty ridiculous. While a very loose legal interpretation might be that they are entitled to use those photographs you post, this is mainly an ass-covering exercise from a legal perspective, as they distribute your photograph to friends, friends of friends, or anyone who looks at it, depending on your security settings. You are essentially giving them permission to do this. Now, I’m not saying that Facebook doesn’t have privacy and data issues (they are known to sell your behavioural data to marketers, or even manipulate your experience on the site for research purposes), however the idea that they would risk a huge media blow-up over stealing someone’s photos is, to me at least, stretching belief. They make money off people who use their site. If you stop producing content for them, or stop using their site, they aren’t showing you advertising anymore, or aggregating your data to sell to marketing people. This is worth far more to them than any photograph could be worth. I have no doubt I have earned Facebook more revenue just by using it than I have ever made selling photos. Having said all that, if you don’t want to post photos on Facebook, there’s no reason you have to. And if you don’t want to be on Facebook at all, that’s fine too, that’s totally your call. Just don’t be too surprised if you start missing out on the latest in bird news, since that seems to be the way things are going at the moment here in Aus. Cheers, Chris On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Carl Clifford < carlsclifford@gmail.com> wrote: — Check out our site: http://www.bird-o.com Follow us on Facebook (Bird-O) and Twitter (@birdodotcom)
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Here is section 1. of Facebook’s statement on intellectual property rights. For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, such as photos and videos (IP content), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide licence to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook (IP Licence). This IP Licence ends when you delete your IP content or your account, unless your content has been shared with others and they have not deleted it. the full T&C can be found at https://www.facebook.com/legal/terms I would be very careful about posting anything, text or images on Facebook that you would want to possibly want to make money out of in the future. they can probably afford bigger and better lawyers than the average FB user, and you would have to take them on in the US legal system. Carl Clifford On 13 Nov 2014, at 2:52 pm, wildlifeexperiences@gmail.com wrote:
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Hi Peter, and others, John is right, the majority of the discussion has happened on facebook. Increasingly I think, there is a shift away from birding-aus for several reasons. An email list is a relatively slow way of disseminating information (much faster than past methods, but much slower than something like facebook). Most significantly, b-a suffers from not being able to handle image files. Almost all of the discussion on the dowitcher’s ID has come from people being able to post photos, add pointers to them, and talk very quickly, in much more of a conversational style than b-a allows. A video or two has also been posted. In terms of how easy it is to retrieve information on facebook: there is a search function that acts like a find tool in a Microsoft Word document (or similar), so it looks for any post containing that word, and then displays the entire thread. In essence, it is no different to searching the archives of birding-aus, although without any issues of having the subject line change halfway through a thread, which can make topics hard to follow here. Obviously, the shift to facebook further fragments the grapevine that the birding community relies on. However, increasing numbers of people, of all ages, have facebook and it really is very convenient. Birdline remains the premier rare bird telegraph page, while this page remains the best for in depth discussions. One of the great criticisms of facebook by social commentators is that it feed the instantaneous me-me-me! attitude of the yoof; ironically, this is exactly what’s needed for rare, twitchable birds, and that makes modern-day social media the best spot for twitchers. Cheers, Ashwin Rudder On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 8:37 AM, John Tongue < jspk@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
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Hi Peter, et al, There has been a fair bit of discussion on the “Australian Twitchers” FB page. While people keep adding comments to a particular thread, that keeps it live and active. I’m not sure what happens to that info some time after people stop commenting, and how easy it will prove to be to retrieve. Cheers, John Tongue On 13/11/2014, at 7:16 AM, Peter Shute < pshute@nuw.org.au> wrote:
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