Hi everyone This bird got my pulse racing this morning. Viewed through a cheap par of bins I keep in the kitchen, I was starting to dream of all those northern hemisphere possibilities. When I got down to the beach with my camera, I found I was looking at either a female Mallard, or a Pacific Black Duck x Mallard hybrid. Can anyone tell me which it is? The orange feet suggest Mallard, but there is a hint of the upturned tail feathers diagnostic of male Mallard, so perhaps it is a male hybrid? Russell Woodford Limeburners Lagoon, Corio PS If you can see this image, then it’s OK to post images to Birding-Aus, as long as you keep them under about 1Mb _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Yes I wrote this on the run I meant muscovy with mallards. — Original Message — Sent: 7 July 2014 8:27 AM Cc: “‘Patrick Guay'” < Patrick.Guay@vu.edu.au>, birding-aus@birding-aus.org Hi Kev, Not sure what you mean with ‘mallards are too distantly related from mallards to hybridise’. I guess, you wanted to say muscovy instead? Anyway, hybridisation between Muscovy and Mallard is well documented. Nikolas A/Prof Nikolas Haass | Head, Experimental Melanoma Therapy Group The University of Queensland Diamantina Institute Level 6 | Translational Research Institute | 37 Kent Street | Woolloongabba QLD 4102 T: +61 (0)7 3443 7087 | M: +61 (0)424 603 579 F: +61 (0)7 3443 6966 E: n.haass1@uq.edu.au | W: http://www.di.uq.edu.au …Turning scientific discoveries into better treatmentsŠ CRICOS Code 00025B This email is intended solely for the addressee. It may contain private or confidential information. If you are not the intended addressee, you must take no action based on it, nor show a copy to anyone. Kindly notify the sender by reply email. Opinions and information in this email which do not relate to the official business of The University of Queensland shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by the University _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Hi Kev, Not sure what you mean with ‘mallards are too distantly related from mallards to hybridise’. I guess, you wanted to say muscovy instead? Anyway, hybridisation between Muscovy and Mallard is well documented. Nikolas A/Prof Nikolas Haass | Head, Experimental Melanoma Therapy Group The University of Queensland Diamantina Institute Level 6 | Translational Research Institute | 37 Kent Street | Woolloongabba QLD 4102 T: +61 (0)7 3443 7087 | M: +61 (0)424 603 579 F: +61 (0)7 3443 6966 E: n.haass1@uq.edu.au | W: http://www.di.uq.edu.au …Turning scientific discoveries into better treatmentsŠ CRICOS Code 00025B This email is intended solely for the addressee. It may contain private or confidential information. If you are not the intended addressee, you must take no action based on it, nor show a copy to anyone. Kindly notify the sender by reply email. Opinions and information in this email which do not relate to the official business of The University of Queensland shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by the University On 7/07/14 8:07 AM, “Kev Lobotomi” < kevlobotomi@hotmail.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Hi all I dont think mallards could hybridise with mallards. Too distantly related. They certainly wouldn’t produce fertile young. Kev — Original Message — Sent: 7 July 2014 2:54 AM Cc: “‘Patrick Guay'” < Patrick.Guay@vu.edu.au>, birding-aus@birding-aus.org Hi All Hmmm, 1984?… it doesn’t seem that long ago! Over in WA we have no wild-type Mallards, so the few odd ducks that appear on lakes here are either: 1 – purebred or crossbred (mongrel) domestic Mallards, many of which have eye-stripes 2 – domestic Mallard x Muscovy hybrids (which are quite variable, sometimes have red around the beak but not always, have a wedge-shaped tail… and are sterile), or 3 – domestic Mallard x Pacific Black Duck hybrids. The domestic Mallards released on lakes are mostly males, so hybrids are almost always crosses between Male domestic Mallard and female Pacific Black Duck and are fertile. They may or may not fly but tend to be fairly sedentary. Orange legs are certainly common in Mallard x Black Duck hybrids that I’ve seen over here. These photos look to me like a crossbred domestic Mallard, although it could be a Mallard x Muscovy hybrid – how did it move? Was the tail fairly stiff and wedge-shaped? I’ll be interested to hear what Patrick Guay from Vic Uni thinks. Cheers Mandy Mandy Bamford Perth WA —–Original Message—– Sent: Saturday, 5 July 2014 10:25 AM Cc: ‘Patrick Guay’; birding-aus@birding-aus.org; ‘Mandy Bamford’ Mandy Bamford (nee Silberstein) looked at hybridisation between Mallards and Pacific Black Ducks in Perth for her Honours degree at the University of Western Australia in 1984 (I know, a long time ago!), so I have cc’ed her into this conversation too. All the best, Stephen Stephen Ambrose Ryde NSW —–Original Message—– John Harris Sent: Friday, 4 July 2014 4:08 PM Cc: Patrick Guay; birding-aus@birding-aus.org Hi All, I’d like to add my 2 cents worth to this discussion. Dr Patrick Guay from Vic Uni has looked at hybridisation between native ducks and Mallard types and is much better placed to add to this discussion than I am so i have cc’ed him into this. An interesting topic indeed. *Yours in all things* “*GREEN”* *John Harris BASc, GDipEd* *Croydon, Vic* * Director – Wildlife Experiences Pty LtdPrincipal Ecologist/Zoologist* *Nature Photographer* *Wildlife Guide* *wildlifeexperiences@gmail.com < wildlifeexperiences@gmail.com>* *0409090955* *President, Field Naturalists Club of Victoria* *(www.fncv.org.au)* On 4 July 2014 12:30, Mike Carter < pterodroma@bigpond.com> wrote: duck species (I.e. genus can hybridize & produce young. male hybrid? _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org — This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Hi All Hmmm, 1984?… it doesn’t seem that long ago! Over in WA we have no wild-type Mallards, so the few odd ducks that appear on lakes here are either: 1 – purebred or crossbred (mongrel) domestic Mallards, many of which have eye-stripes 2 – domestic Mallard x Muscovy hybrids (which are quite variable, sometimes have red around the beak but not always, have a wedge-shaped tail… and are sterile), or 3 – domestic Mallard x Pacific Black Duck hybrids. The domestic Mallards released on lakes are mostly males, so hybrids are almost always crosses between Male domestic Mallard and female Pacific Black Duck and are fertile. They may or may not fly but tend to be fairly sedentary. Orange legs are certainly common in Mallard x Black Duck hybrids that I’ve seen over here. These photos look to me like a crossbred domestic Mallard, although it could be a Mallard x Muscovy hybrid – how did it move? Was the tail fairly stiff and wedge-shaped? I’ll be interested to hear what Patrick Guay from Vic Uni thinks. Cheers Mandy Mandy Bamford Perth WA —–Original Message—– Sent: Saturday, 5 July 2014 10:25 AM Cc: ‘Patrick Guay’; birding-aus@birding-aus.org; ‘Mandy Bamford’ Mandy Bamford (nee Silberstein) looked at hybridisation between Mallards and Pacific Black Ducks in Perth for her Honours degree at the University of Western Australia in 1984 (I know, a long time ago!), so I have cc’ed her into this conversation too. All the best, Stephen Stephen Ambrose Ryde NSW —–Original Message—– John Harris Sent: Friday, 4 July 2014 4:08 PM Cc: Patrick Guay; birding-aus@birding-aus.org Hi All, I’d like to add my 2 cents worth to this discussion. Dr Patrick Guay from Vic Uni has looked at hybridisation between native ducks and Mallard types and is much better placed to add to this discussion than I am so i have cc’ed him into this. An interesting topic indeed. *Yours in all things* “*GREEN”* *John Harris BASc, GDipEd* *Croydon, Vic* * Director – Wildlife Experiences Pty LtdPrincipal Ecologist/Zoologist* *Nature Photographer* *Wildlife Guide* *wildlifeexperiences@gmail.com < wildlifeexperiences@gmail.com>* *0409090955* *President, Field Naturalists Club of Victoria* *(www.fncv.org.au)* On 4 July 2014 12:30, Mike Carter < pterodroma@bigpond.com> wrote: duck species (I.e. genus can hybridize & produce young. male hybrid? _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org — This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Hi All, I’d like to add my 2 cents worth to this discussion. Dr Patrick Guay from Vic Uni has looked at hybridisation between native ducks and Mallard types and is much better placed to add to this discussion than I am so i have cc’ed him into this. An interesting topic indeed. *Yours in all things* “*GREEN”* *John Harris BASc, GDipEd* *Croydon, Vic* * Director – Wildlife Experiences Pty LtdPrincipal Ecologist/Zoologist* *Nature Photographer* *Wildlife Guide* *wildlifeexperiences@gmail.com < wildlifeexperiences@gmail.com>* *0409090955* *President, Field Naturalists Club of Victoria* *(www.fncv.org.au)* On 4 July 2014 12:30, Mike Carter < pterodroma@bigpond.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
There are Pacific Black Ducks around Brisbane with bright orange legs and feet too. I have photos of a pair from Forest Lake. Cheers, Sandra —–Original Message—– Mike Carter Sent: Friday, 4 July 2014 12:30 PM birding-aus@birding-aus.org Cc: Peter Menkhorst A rather late entry to this debate. I have no doubt that Russell’s bird was of feral origin, a hybrid farm-yard type duck. But the increasing occurrence of bright orange feet in otherwise ‘perfect’ Pacific Black Ducks south-east of Melbourne is surprising, difficult to explain and perhaps of some concern. Not so long ago I would count an orange-footed bird as a Shoveler but can no longer rely on that as an ID feature as more Black Ducks now show it. Surprising because Pacific Black Ducks are abundant, Mallard are extremely rare and the larger free flying farm-yard ducks very uncommon. As an illustration I took the attached shot showing Black Duck with orange feet on one of our recent surveys on a wetland SE of Melbourne. I realise that some individuals have brighter feet than others but it seems to me that the brightness and frequency of orange feet in Black Ducks is increasing. Mike Carter 30 Canadian Bay Road Mount Eliza VIC 3930 Tel (03) 9787 7136 —– Original Message —– “Russell Woodford” < rdwoodford@gmail.com>; < birding-aus@birding-aus.org> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 7:44 AM Hi, Why N America and not Europe or N Asia? I don’t remember a difference between Gadwalls across these continents regarding their speculum pattern? Overall jizz, head shape, facial pattern, bill colour, bill shape and speculum pattern don’t match that of a Gadwall but rather match that of the Mallard complex. Gadwall has a sharply defined black and white speculum very unlike that of the hybrid mutant monster in question. Thus, I don’t think that Gadwall is part of this mix. Having said this, it is well documented in the literature that the off spring of two duck species (I.e. Tufted Duck x Common Pochard can look like Lesser Scaup plus many more examples; see Randler 2001 or Gillham & Gillham 1996) can look much more similar to a third species than to either of the parents. This certainly complicates the ID of hybrid waterfowl. Anyway, I am pretty sure that this bird is a human-influenced mutant on top of the hybridisation issue. Therefore my ID ‘barnyard-type” Pacific Black Duck x Mallard hybrid. Nikolas Probably beyond the Pale, but in N America the speculum would look like a Gadwall. -TATE ——– Original Message ——– Hi all I would agree with the hybrid bit, but I reckon there’s a chance there’s Hardhead in it! The bill is very Hardhead shaped, with colour a bit like Hardhead too, dark grey base with a pale terminal third of the tip. Also wing pattern a bit odd for Mallard/Black Duck. Not too much iridescence there & a slight whitish wingbar (more like a Hardhead). I’ve heard that Mallard males are very randy & may mate with anything. Perhaps a male mated with a Hardhead & produced this? With ducks, I’ve also heard that many ducks, even those not in the same genus can hybridize & produce young. Whether something like this would be fertile, would be very unlikely I would imagine. Is there anyone out there who can enlighten us with knowledge that is better than the “I’ve heard” stage of information I’d be most interested. These pond ducks usually bore the hell out of me, but this bird looks a bit interesting.-Kevin Bartram _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
A rather late entry to this debate. I have no doubt that Russell’s bird was of feral origin, a hybrid farm-yard type duck. But the increasing occurrence of bright orange feet in otherwise ‘perfect’ Pacific Black Ducks south-east of Melbourne is surprising, difficult to explain and perhaps of some concern. Not so long ago I would count an orange-footed bird as a Shoveler but can no longer rely on that as an ID feature as more Black Ducks now show it. Surprising because Pacific Black Ducks are abundant, Mallard are extremely rare and the larger free flying farm-yard ducks very uncommon. As an illustration I took the attached shot showing Black Duck with orange feet on one of our recent surveys on a wetland SE of Melbourne. I realise that some individuals have brighter feet than others but it seems to me that the brightness and frequency of orange feet in Black Ducks is increasing. Mike Carter 30 Canadian Bay Road Mount Eliza VIC 3930 Tel (03) 9787 7136 —– Original Message —– “Russell Woodford” < rdwoodford@gmail.com>; < birding-aus@birding-aus.org> Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2014 7:44 AM Hi, Why N America and not Europe or N Asia? I don’t remember a difference between Gadwalls across these continents regarding their speculum pattern? Overall jizz, head shape, facial pattern, bill colour, bill shape and speculum pattern don’t match that of a Gadwall but rather match that of the Mallard complex. Gadwall has a sharply defined black and white speculum very unlike that of the hybrid mutant monster in question. Thus, I don’t think that Gadwall is part of this mix. Having said this, it is well documented in the literature that the off spring of two duck species (I.e. Tufted Duck x Common Pochard can look like Lesser Scaup plus many more examples; see Randler 2001 or Gillham & Gillham 1996) can look much more similar to a third species than to either of the parents. This certainly complicates the ID of hybrid waterfowl. Anyway, I am pretty sure that this bird is a human-influenced mutant on top of the hybridisation issue. Therefore my ID ‘barnyard-type” Pacific Black Duck x Mallard hybrid. Nikolas Probably beyond the Pale, but in N America the speculum would look like a Gadwall. -TATE ——– Original Message ——– Hi all I would agree with the hybrid bit, but I reckon there’s a chance there’s Hardhead in it! The bill is very Hardhead shaped, with colour a bit like Hardhead too, dark grey base with a pale terminal third of the tip. Also wing pattern a bit odd for Mallard/Black Duck. Not too much iridescence there & a slight whitish wingbar (more like a Hardhead). I’ve heard that Mallard males are very randy & may mate with anything. Perhaps a male mated with a Hardhead & produced this? With ducks, I’ve also heard that many ducks, even those not in the same genus can hybridize & produce young. Whether something like this would be fertile, would be very unlikely I would imagine. Is there anyone out there who can enlighten us with knowledge that is better than the “I’ve heard” stage of information I’d be most interested. These pond ducks usually bore the hell out of me, but this bird looks a bit interesting.-Kevin Bartram _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Hi, Why N America and not Europe or N Asia? I don’t remember a difference between Gadwalls across these continents regarding their speculum pattern? Overall jizz, head shape, facial pattern, bill colour, bill shape and speculum pattern don’t match that of a Gadwall but rather match that of the Mallard complex. Gadwall has a sharply defined black and white speculum very unlike that of the hybrid mutant monster in question. Thus, I don’t think that Gadwall is part of this mix. Having said this, it is well documented in the literature that the off spring of two duck species (I.e. Tufted Duck x Common Pochard can look like Lesser Scaup plus many more examples; see Randler 2001 or Gillham & Gillham 1996) can look much more similar to a third species than to either of the parents. This certainly complicates the ID of hybrid waterfowl. Anyway, I am pretty sure that this bird is a human-influenced mutant on top of the hybridisation issue. Therefore my ID ‘barnyard-type” Pacific Black Duck x Mallard hybrid. Cheers, Nikolas A/Prof Nikolas Haass | Head, Experimental Melanoma Therapy Group The University of Queensland Diamantina Institute Level 6 | Translational Research Institute | 37 Kent Street | Woolloongabba QLD 4102 T: +61 (0)7 3443 7087 | M: +61 (0)424 603 579 F: +61 (0)7 3443 6966 E: n.haass1@uq.edu.au | W: http://www.di.uq.edu.au [cid:image001.png@01CCAA73.229EB890] …Turning scientific discoveries into better treatments… CRICOS Code 00025B This email is intended solely for the addressee. It may contain private or confidential information. If you are not the intended addressee, you must take no action based on it, nor show a copy to anyone. Kindly notify the sender by reply email. Opinions and information in this email which do not relate to the official business of The University of Queensland shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by the University Probably beyond the Pale, but in N America the speculum would look like a Gadwall. -TATE ——– Original Message ——– “birding-aus@birding-aus.orgbirding-aus@birding-aus.org>” < birding-aus@birding-aus.org birding-aus@birding-aus.org>> Hi all I would agree with the hybrid bit, but I reckon there’s a chance there’s Hardhead in it! The bill is very Hardhead shaped, with colour a bit like Hardhead too, dark grey base with a pale terminal third of the tip. Also wing pattern a bit odd for Mallard/Black Duck. Not too much iridescence there & a slight whitish wingbar (more like a Hardhead). I’ve heard that Mallard males are very randy & may mate with anything. Perhaps a male mated with a Hardhead & produced this? With ducks, I’ve also heard that many ducks, even those not in the same genus can hybridize & produce young. Whether something like this would be fertile, would be very unlikely I would imagine. Is there anyone out there who can enlighten us with knowledge that is better than the “I’ve heard” stage of information I’d be most interested. These pond ducks usually bore the hell out of me, but this bird looks a bit interesting.-Kevin Bartram _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org> To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
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Hi all, There is a nice 3-part article about wildfowl hybridisation by Christoph Randler in Alula 2001 (issues 2, 3 & 4). And there the ‘hybrid wildfowl bible’ by Gillham & Gillham. Yes, there are Anas X Aythya hybrids. But I don’t see Aythya traits in this bird. I don’t think that the bill speaks against the Mallard complex. The wing pattern speaks for the Mallard complex and against Hardhead which would show black-tipped white secondaries and primaries creating a prominent and contrasting white wing stripe. This bird looks to me like a ‘barnyard-type’ Pacific Black Duck x Mallard hybrid. Best wishes, Nikolas A/Prof Nikolas Haass | Head, Experimental Melanoma Therapy Group The University of Queensland Diamantina Institute Level 6 | Translational Research Institute | 37 Kent Street | Woolloongabba QLD 4102 T: +61 (0)7 3443 7087 | M: +61 (0)424 603 579 F: +61 (0)7 3443 6966 E: n.haass1@uq.edu.au | W: http://www.di.uq.edu.au …Turning scientific discoveries into better treatmentsŠ CRICOS Code 00025B This email is intended solely for the addressee. It may contain private or confidential information. If you are not the intended addressee, you must take no action based on it, nor show a copy to anyone. Kindly notify the sender by reply email. Opinions and information in this email which do not relate to the official business of The University of Queensland shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by the University On 21/06/14 11:19 AM, “Kev Lobotomi” < kevlobotomi@hotmail.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Hi all I would agree with the hybrid bit, but I reckon there’s a chance there’s Hardhead in it! The bill is very Hardhead shaped, with colour a bit like Hardhead too, dark grey base with a pale terminal third of the tip. Also wing pattern a bit odd for Mallard/Black Duck. Not too much iridescence there & a slight whitish wingbar (more like a Hardhead). I’ve heard that Mallard males are very randy & may mate with anything. Perhaps a male mated with a Hardhead & produced this? With ducks, I’ve also heard that many ducks, even those not in the same genus can hybridize & produce young. Whether something like this would be fertile, would be very unlikely I would imagine. Is there anyone out there who can enlighten us with knowledge that is better than the “I’ve heard” stage of information I’d be most interested. These pond ducks usually bore the hell out of me, but this bird looks a bit interesting.-Kevin Bartram _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org