That’s OK Ross. I shouldn’t have attacked the OHS people I’m OK attacking lawyers and the law as I think that that are wrong and some of the lawyers are ambulance chasers and advertise the fact..
The point that I was making, ineffectively, was that there should be a balance between freedom and safety and this applies to access to Birding sites held publicly. If someone cries “safety” it should not be a complete justification without further examination.
Have you ever looked at the signs that say “Crest” on the road and wonder why they are there? You are going up a hill and the road disappears. You can see that it is a crest and I’m not sure why you need the sign. Yet millions of dollars have been spent and each sign is a minor distraction because someone cried “safety”
I know how to avoid crocodiles. I know how to lobby MP’s
Regards
Reg lawler
. —– Original Message —– From: “Ross Macfarlane” To: “Reg” ; “‘Birding-aus'” Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] NOTICE: Application for Permits atLeanyerSewageFarm, NT
> I’m sorry. I shouldn’t have sent that. > > —–Original Message—– > From: Ross Macfarlane > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 11:43 AM > To: Reg ; ‘Birding-aus’ > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] NOTICE: Application for Permits > atLeanyerSewageFarm, NT > > Reg, thanks for that. Can I ask that if you ever come to my worksite you > be > sure to reiterate those views so I know damn well not to let you through > the > gate. > > As to the legal responsibilities, if you don’t like the way the law is > written you are welcome to run for parliament and seek to get them > changed. > The Commonwealth, 6 states and 2 territories have spent the last 10 years > trying to come up with a nationally harmonised approach to OHS, but I’m > sure > they won’t bat an eye at chucking it all out to suit your personal > reluctance to spend an hour having someone explain to you how not to get > eaten by a crocodile. > > —–Original Message—– > From: Reg > Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 7:32 AM > To: ‘Birding-aus’ > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] NOTICE: Application for Permits > atLeanyerSewageFarm, NT > > Isn’t it amazing that people make a living restricting the freedom of > others. > > Once upon a time people took the reesponsibility for their own safety. > Captain Cook and Mawson and my parents took risks without the benefit of > the bureaucrats and others deciding what was safe. Accidents happen and > we > should certainly seek toprevent them but there is a point where the > benefits > of safety are less than the benefits of freedom. Otherwise we would never > drive. This discussion shows illustrates that we have well and truly > passed > the point of benefit of more regulations. > > If the best argument for rules is to prevent the legal system from > employing > itself harrassing us, we should protest and get the lawyers to move on to > work with a public benefit. If the law is wrong we should change the law. > > Those who benefit from our continuing acceptance of their right to rule > our > lives will not give up easily. The lawyers and OH& S officers make a nice > living at this. We are presently giving evereythiong up as a “safety” > issue > and moving beyond the Americans in suiing each other. > > Any landowner has the right to refuse access of course. If the public > authorities wish to do this, they can. And we, as the owners, then lobby > our representatives for the return of access. Perhaps some signs could > solve problems? But let’s not just give up for a vision of a risk free > future and the domination of the lawyers and experts. > > Reg Lawler > > > > To: “Ross Macfarlane” > Cc: “‘Birding-aus'” > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 11:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] NOTICE: Application for Permits at > LeanyerSewageFarm, NT > > > Ross, > > Glad to hear that NTP&W will wear the public liability for visitors at > Leanyer. > > I also heartily agree with your comments about people being smart > about safety. I have seen birders do some pretty dumb things, just so > they can get a good view of a bird. Fortunately, the worst accident I > have seen was $2000 odd of binoculars bouncing down a canyon when the > owner lost his grip while hanging over a guard rail, while trying to > get a better view of an American Dipper. > > Cheers, > > Carl Clifford > > On 23/09/2011, at 11:40 AM, Ross Macfarlane wrote: > > Carl, > > NTP&W not only has the right, they have the legal responsibility under > work health and safety laws to restrict access to their sites by > people who haven’t been inducted and had the hazards at the site > explained to them. It’s actually the other way around from what you > describe: they are legally responsible from a public liability > standpoint for visitors (unlike commercial contractors.) But you are > right that if as an inducted person you take an un-inducted person > into the WTP, you would have a responsibility to ensure they obey the > rules and don’t get hurt. > > I’m a health and safety consultant by profession, and I’ve also been > the volunteer safety officer for the Victorian Malleefowl Recovery > Group for over 10 years. We take a strenuously professional approach > to safety – all our volunteers have to be trained and all have to make > daily scheduled call-ins to safety officers when in the field, > otherwise we ask Parks Victoria rangers to go out and check they’re > OK. Taking safety seriously has been really important in keeping > ongoing support (including financially) from PV for our work. > > I really encourage all volunteer conservation groups to get smart > about safety. If you behave responsibly and professionally TPTB* will > support you. If not, they can make life hard, because you make their > life hard. > > Cheers, > Ross Macfarlane > > *-he -owers -hat -e > > —–Original Message—– From: Carl Clifford > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 9:45 AM > To: Chris Sanderson > Cc: Peter Kyne ; birding-aus@vicnet.net.au > Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] NOTICE: Application for Permits at Leanyer > SewageFarm, NT > > Hi Chris, > > I was not arguing for any side. I was just pointing out the possible > legal implications for authorised key holders who allow non-inducted > people to accompany them or loan keys to (which I believe does happen) > > NTP&W make the rules, as does any landholder, for access to their > property and we must follow them. If people do not follow NTP&W’s > rules, we are likely to see birders locked out of Leanyer completely. > > Cheers, > > Carl Clifford > > > On 23/09/2011, at 8:41 AM, Chris Sanderson wrote: > > Hi Carl, > > You are spot on, but I think you are looking at this issue from the > wrong side – part of the reason for refusal to renew permits was that > NTP&W’s concern that people were entering Leanyer without having done > an induction, illegally. Some were sneaking in behind others with > keys, others were getting in having borrowed a key. Essentially the > kind of behaviour you are arguing birders should be able to continue > almost spoiled it for everyone. For a while it looked like birders > might not be allowed back in at all! So to be honest, if organising > to do an induction is too much of a hassle for your holiday, then > maybe choose another site to bird at. > > I briefly flagged these issues when the original closure happened back > in October last year: > http://bird-o.com/2010/10/02/living-leanyer-a-birding-jewel/ > > No one has said key holders won’t be able to take non-inductees with > them at this stage, so perhaps that will still be allowed? Personally > I’m glad that locals in NT have been able to work with NTP&W to > arrange access again, it would have been sad if the closure had > remained permanently. > > Cheers, > Chris > > On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Carl Clifford > wrote: > Hi Simon, > > Well, that opens a can of worms. NTP&W making an OH&S induction course > a condition for a permit places any permit holder who allows a person > who has not completed the induction to accompany them to Leanyer in an > invidious position. NTP&W has shifted the public risk liability onto > the permit holder who allows any non-inducted person to accompany > them. Permit holders who give their key to anyone who has not been > inducted, and allows that person to go into Leanyer by themselves, may > well find themselves even further in the legal deep end. > > This policy may well result in hiring professional guides with public > liability insurance, the only way for visiting birders to visit Leanyer. > > Carl Clifford > > > On 22/09/2011, at 4:31 PM, Simon Mustoe wrote: > > > Hi, > > Peter Kyne has requested that we kindly pass on information from NT > Power and Water, regarding access to Leanyer Sewage Farm. Note, the > application for a permit will only suit locals and the deadline is 30 > September. Here is his message: > > Dear NT Birders, > To assist Power and Water in arranging access to Leanyer Sewage > Ponds, they have asked to I co-ordinate a list of all of those people > interested in obtaining a permit to access the ponds. At this stage > please use me as a central contact point rather than individually > contacting Power and Water. > This is the first step for Power and Water to begin preparing > indemnities and keys, and in upgrading their database. Following this > will be an induction process, > with Power and Water looking at a group induction in the first > instance. Date and time to be advised in due course. So please, don’t > apply if you are not able to make yourself available for this induction, > thanks ; ) > If you wish to obtain a permit, please advise me of the following > details by 12 noon FRIDAY 30 September: > 1. First name and surname > 2. Email address > 3. Residential address > 4. Phone number (home/mobile) > 5. If you are a member of the NTFNC > Permits will be issued for a 3 year period with a $50 key deposit. > Previous key deposits will be honoured. > Many thanks, Pete Kyne > > Peter Kyne, PhD > Tropical Rivers and Coastal Knowledge > Charles Darwin University > Darwin 0909 NT, Australia > Ph: 08 8946 7616 > Mob: 0435 139 322 > > For more information on Leanyer and birding in the Top End, > http://bird-o.com/northern-territory-and-the-top-end/ > > Regards, > > Simon. > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Simon Mustoe > Tel: +61 (0) 405220830 | Skype simonmustoe | Email > simonmustoe@ecology-solutions.com.au > > Visit BIRD-O at http://www.bird-o.com > Follow BIRD-O on Twitter http://www.twitter.com/birdodotcom > Like BIRD-O on Facebook? 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