A really interesting short clip on the benefits of wolves in Yellowstone N P. Perhaps a lesson that would translate to other areas… http://devour.com/video/how-wolves-change-rivers/ Clive. _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
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16 comments to A vote for conservation… |
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Had another look at the passerine (2:08-2:10). As I said earlier, it’s a Locustella. However, since not all field marks are visible to tell all species of that genus apart, I have to include Pallas’s and Middendorf’s Grasshopper Warbler (two Asian Locustella species) to the potential candidates. Doesn’t really matter as none of them occur in Yellowstone! And yes, it is a bit nerdy to try to correctly ID the mis-IDs but it tells you somewhat with how much care this video was put together and that it is always good to gather more information. Nikolas —————- Nikolas Haass nhaass@yahoo.com Brisbane, QLD ________________________________ From: Nikolas Haass < nhaass@yahoo.com> Sent: Saturday, April 5, 2014 9:05 AM Hi Jim, Yes, I agree that generalizing (of the big picture of this story) is somewhat misleading and sometimes even counterproductive. I agree that they should have called the Elk Elk. No, it’s not a Warbling Vireo. Neither jizz, nor bill shape, nor facial pattern, nor bill movement during song fit Warbling Vireo. Unfortunately, the video doesn’t have the song and doesn’t show that Locustella-style undertail coverts… Cheers, Nikolas —————- Nikolas Haass nhaass@yahoo.com Brisbane, QLD ________________________________ From: Jim Tate < jim@tate-tate.us> Sent: Saturday, April 5, 2014 5:12 AM If you choose to say any member of the Cervidae (deer family) is a deer, then the Moose (1:56-1:58 ) is also a deer. I kinda wish the narrator would have said “Elk”, instead of generalizing for this popularized video. The bird at 2:08-2:10 is probably a Warbling Vireo (Vireo gilvus) the only vireo that regularly nests in Yellowstone. I can almost hear its song in the picture (a rapid warbling song with a accented, high-pitched last note: “If I sees you, I will seize you, and I’ll squeeze you till you squirt!”) – go to http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/warbling_vireo/sounds. Going to the bigger picture, I feel like the video generalized the pluses of predator reintroduction and may be somewhat misleading to the uninformed public. This what we used to call “Gee Whiz Biology.” Here are a couple of the best articles on Trophic Cascades at Yellowstone: http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/04-0953 http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.2307/1941684 Yeah, I enjoyed the video, and sent it on to some of my friends. Thank you, Colin R., for sharing. -TATE ——– Original Message ——– _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Greetings, I liked the quotation I’ve taken from the comments section: “If ecologists were to include parasites in their thinking, they would realize that it is parasites who manage ecosystems. When the normal predator-prey interrelationships become inadequate, diseases move in and regulate populations.” It reminds me of my favourite Indonesian proverb, “If you think you understand the situation: brother, you are obviously misinformed.” This striving for predictive capability of a CSI type certainty is a good thing to strive for but to expect it in something as complex as a mud puddle is a bit rich and in an ecosystem like a tropical rainforest is a nonsense. One of the take home messages from all these studies for me is that the ecosystem will never be the same as it was (if it ever was). By the parenthesis I mean that we really only think we know what things were like before. We might remember for example that people on the Atherton Tablelands in the 1920’s often kept a Cassowary chick in the chook pen but what else was happening in the forest and the chook pen? Tree-roos might once have been rarer in remnants than they are now but was that extra predation on an easy target for a man with a dog and gun? It all makes a very good case for conserving what good habitats we have and the idea of trade offs is a furphy. best wishes, Alan Alan’s Wildlife Tours 2 Mather Road Yungaburra 4884 Phone 07 4095 3784 Mobile 0408 953 786 http://www.alanswildlifetours.com.au/ —–Original Message—– Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2014 12:33 PM Cc: birding-aus@birding-aus.org That agrees with this quote: “Questions have also emerged about the well-publicized relationship between wolves and willows. Marshall and two colleagues investigated the controls on willow shrubs by examining ten years’ worth of data from open plots and plots surrounded by cages to keep the elk out. Her team found8 that the willows were not thriving in all the protected sites. The only plants that grew above 2 metres — beyond the reach of browsing elk — were those in areas where simulated beaver dams had raised the water table.” I.e it may be true that wolves protect willows, but it only helps near water. Peter Shute Sent from my iPad On 6 Apr 2014, at 10:31 am, “Sonja Ross” < sonja.ross7@gmail.comsonja.ross7@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi Peter, What our guide, Tom Murphy, a photographer who has assisted wildlife productions such as those done by David Attenborough, and who lives not far from the park so is there often, was that elk had eaten down the willows that grow along streams etc which meant for example that there was no food for beavers, nor branches to form their lodges. The willows would probably be a more likely tree to stabilise stream banks than aspen, so maybe the aspen issue is only part of the story. Sonja On 06/04/2014, at 10:20 AM, Peter Shute < pshute@nuw.org.au pshute@nuw.org.au>> wrote: From that article: “When Kauffman and his colleagues studied aspen in areas where risk of attack by wolves was high or low, they obtained results different from Ripple’s. Rather than look at the five tallest aspen in each stand, as Ripple had done, they tallied the average tree height and used locations of elk kills to map the risk of wolf attacks. By these measures, they found no differences between trees in high- and low-risk areas.” So some people are getting excited about tree regrowth that might be attributed to the presence of wolves, but others are arguing about whether there’s been any regrowth at all. Anyone else confused? Peter Shut Sent from my iPhone On 4 Apr 2014, at 3:51 pm, “Ross Macfarlane” < rmacfarl@tpg.com.au rmacfarl@tpg.com.au> rmacfarl@tpg.com.au>> wrote: It’s a fascinating narrative, but like most things maybe not as simple as it sounds – http://www.nature.com/news/rethinking-predators-legend-of-the-wolf-1.14841 —–Original Message—– Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 11:19 AM A really interesting short clip on the benefits of wolves in Yellowstone N P. Perhaps a lesson that would translate to other areas… http://devour.com/video/how-wolves-change-rivers/ Clive. _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org> Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org> To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org> Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org> To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org> To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org —– No virus found in this message. 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That agrees with this quote: “Questions have also emerged about the well-publicized relationship between wolves and willows. Marshall and two colleagues investigated the controls on willow shrubs by examining ten years’ worth of data from open plots and plots surrounded by cages to keep the elk out. Her team found8 that the willows were not thriving in all the protected sites. The only plants that grew above 2 metres — beyond the reach of browsing elk — were those in areas where simulated beaver dams had raised the water table.” I.e it may be true that wolves protect willows, but it only helps near water. Peter Shute Sent from my iPad On 6 Apr 2014, at 10:31 am, “Sonja Ross” < sonja.ross7@gmail.comsonja.ross7@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi Peter, What our guide, Tom Murphy, a photographer who has assisted wildlife productions such as those done by David Attenborough, and who lives not far from the park so is there often, was that elk had eaten down the willows that grow along streams etc which meant for example that there was no food for beavers, nor branches to form their lodges. The willows would probably be a more likely tree to stabilise stream banks than aspen, so maybe the aspen issue is only part of the story. Sonja On 06/04/2014, at 10:20 AM, Peter Shute < pshute@nuw.org.au pshute@nuw.org.au>> wrote: From that article: “When Kauffman and his colleagues studied aspen in areas where risk of attack by wolves was high or low, they obtained results different from Ripple’s. Rather than look at the five tallest aspen in each stand, as Ripple had done, they tallied the average tree height and used locations of elk kills to map the risk of wolf attacks. By these measures, they found no differences between trees in high- and low-risk areas.” So some people are getting excited about tree regrowth that might be attributed to the presence of wolves, but others are arguing about whether there’s been any regrowth at all. Anyone else confused? Peter Shut Sent from my iPhone On 4 Apr 2014, at 3:51 pm, “Ross Macfarlane” < rmacfarl@tpg.com.au rmacfarl@tpg.com.au> rmacfarl@tpg.com.au>> wrote: It’s a fascinating narrative, but like most things maybe not as simple as it sounds – http://www.nature.com/news/rethinking-predators-legend-of-the-wolf-1.14841 —–Original Message—– Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 11:19 AM A really interesting short clip on the benefits of wolves in Yellowstone N P. Perhaps a lesson that would translate to other areas… http://devour.com/video/how-wolves-change-rivers/ Clive. _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org> Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org> To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org> Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org> To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org> To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Well one of the first questions I would ask about that study is whether the supposed risk of wolf attack actually does change the behaviour and distribution of Elk. If it doesn’t then their results are meaningless. Andrew Hobbs — *********************************************************** Andrew Hobbs pardalote@iinet.net.au *********************************************************** _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Hi Peter, What our guide, Tom Murphy, a photographer who has assisted wildlife productions such as those done by David Attenborough, and who lives not far from the park so is there often, was that elk had eaten down the willows that grow along streams etc which meant for example that there was no food for beavers, nor branches to form their lodges. The willows would probably be a more likely tree to stabilise stream banks than aspen, so maybe the aspen issue is only part of the story. Sonja On 06/04/2014, at 10:20 AM, Peter Shute < pshute@nuw.org.au> wrote: _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
From that article: “When Kauffman and his colleagues studied aspen in areas where risk of attack by wolves was high or low, they obtained results different from Ripple’s. Rather than look at the five tallest aspen in each stand, as Ripple had done, they tallied the average tree height and used locations of elk kills to map the risk of wolf attacks. By these measures, they found no differences between trees in high- and low-risk areas.” So some people are getting excited about tree regrowth that might be attributed to the presence of wolves, but others are arguing about whether there’s been any regrowth at all. Anyone else confused? Peter Shut Sent from my iPhone On 4 Apr 2014, at 3:51 pm, “Ross Macfarlane” < rmacfarl@tpg.com.aurmacfarl@tpg.com.au>> wrote: It’s a fascinating narrative, but like most things maybe not as simple as it sounds – http://www.nature.com/news/rethinking-predators-legend-of-the-wolf-1.14841 —–Original Message—– Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 11:19 AM A really interesting short clip on the benefits of wolves in Yellowstone N P. Perhaps a lesson that would translate to other areas… http://devour.com/video/how-wolves-change-rivers/ Clive. _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org> To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org> To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Apart from the debate about the species of animal in this video, has it not been shown that in Australia, there are fewer feral cats where dingoes thrive? Shirley —– Original Message —– Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 11:19 AM _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Hi Jim, Yes, I agree that generalizing (of the big picture of this story) is somewhat misleading and sometimes even counterproductive. I agree that they should have called the Elk Elk. No, it’s not a Warbling Vireo. Neither jizz, nor bill shape, nor facial pattern, nor bill movement during song fit Warbling Vireo. Unfortunately, the video doesn’t have the song and doesn’t show that Locustella-style undertail coverts… Cheers, Nikolas —————- Nikolas Haass nhaass@yahoo.com Brisbane, QLD ________________________________ From: Jim Tate < jim@tate-tate.us> Sent: Saturday, April 5, 2014 5:12 AM If you choose to say any member of the Cervidae (deer family) is a deer, then the Moose (1:56-1:58 ) is also a deer. I kinda wish the narrator would have said “Elk”, instead of generalizing for this popularized video. The bird at 2:08-2:10 is probably a Warbling Vireo (Vireo gilvus) the only vireo that regularly nests in Yellowstone. I can almost hear its song in the picture (a rapid warbling song with a accented, high-pitched last note: “If I sees you, I will seize you, and I’ll squeeze you till you squirt!”) – go to http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/warbling_vireo/sounds. Going to the bigger picture, I feel like the video generalized the pluses of predator reintroduction and may be somewhat misleading to the uninformed public. This what we used to call “Gee Whiz Biology.” Here are a couple of the best articles on Trophic Cascades at Yellowstone: http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/04-0953 http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.2307/1941684 Yeah, I enjoyed the video, and sent it on to some of my friends. Thank you, Colin R., for sharing. -TATE ——– Original Message ——– _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
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It’s a fascinating narrative, but like most things maybe not as simple as it sounds – http://www.nature.com/news/rethinking-predators-legend-of-the-wolf-1.14841 —–Original Message—– Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 11:19 AM A really interesting short clip on the benefits of wolves in Yellowstone N P. Perhaps a lesson that would translate to other areas… http://devour.com/video/how-wolves-change-rivers/ Clive. _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Yes, this is an important message and it is great to explain this to the public in this way. While the most of the deer in the movie are indeed Elk, which is a native deer to the region, there is another native deer species shown: a young Mule Deer (0:40-0:43). But I did find a few errors though: (1) Isn’t the passerine (2:08-2:10) a Savi’s Warbler? I.e a European species? (2) The still image of the badger shows actually a European Badger, which looks very different from the native American Badger. (3) Not sure, which Cottontail the rabbit is. I think it’s a European Rabbit, which doesn’t occur in the area. (4) Not sure about the weasel. It is some kind of a ferret (which indeed is a weasel species). Doesn’t look quite like a Black-footed Ferret. Cheers, Nikolas —————- Nikolas Haass nhaass@yahoo.com Brisbane, QLD ________________________________ From: Jim Tate < jim@tate-tate.us> Sent: Friday, April 4, 2014 12:03 PM Yes, a good video in its main message. However, the deer are actually elk- but then the narrator appears to have a British accent and he may be used to Red Deer a European cousin to elk. -TATE James Tate, Jr., Ph.D. 2031 Huidekoper Pl NW Washington, DC 20007 T 202-841-2056 jim@tate-tate.us Ancora Imparo (Italian)- I am still learning… Michelangelo ——– Original Message ——– _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
The narrator is George Monbiot, author and columnist for The Guardian in England. The very first on-line petition I ever did was to bring the wolves back to Yellowstone. As I recall, the aim was to control the grazers so the Aspen could recover. Clearly much more was achieved. So, I did good, didn’t I? 😉 The conservation battle is never finally won; the development battle is. _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Great piece of film. It has been pretty well proven that if you remove top predators, the environment concerned usually be gins to degrade. Interestingly, there is one exception. If Earths top predator, Homo sapiens, were to be removed, the planets environment would improve. Carl Clifford _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
Thanks for sharing this. My husband and I were on winter tour there in early February and saw some of these benefits for ourselves. Moose are slowly returning too as they forage along the rivers where willows are regrowing. Busy as a beaver is certainly apt – they really struggle as they pull branches along the tunnels they create in the snow. I don’t know if Dippers have benefited but they were certainly busy in many of the streams which must have had icy cold water even though they were still flowing, and amazing to watch. I’m sure there are lessons that should be used as well – no man (part of nature) is an island, entire of itself! Sonja On 04/04/2014, at 11:19 AM, Clive Nealon < clivenealon@gmail.com> wrote: _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org
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Brilliant! Tx. Colin On Fri, Apr 4, 2014, at 10:19 AM, Clive Nealon wrote: — Colin Reid jangles@fastmail.fm So many birds, so little time…… — http://www.fastmail.fm – Accessible with your email software or over the web _______________________________________________ Birding-Aus mailing list Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org To change settings or unsubscribe visit: http://birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org