Hi Friends,
How many people are aware that the Australian Magpie has been transferred from Gymnorhina to Cracticus, as a result of Kearns, A.M., L. Joseph, and L.G. Cook (2013), A multilocus coalescent analysis of the speciational history of the Australo-Papuan butcherbirds and their allies, Mol. Phylogenet. Evol. 66, 941-952.
So it’s a Butcherbird!
Dr John Penhallurick
86 Bingley Cres
Fraser A.C.T. 2615
Australia
email:jpenhall@bigpond.net.au
Phone: Home (612) 62585428
Mobile:0408585426
sunt lacrimae rerum et mentem mortalia tangunt Aeneid Book 1,line 462 “The world is a world of tears, and the burdens of mortality touch the heart.”
Magna est veritas et praevalet Vulgate, Book of Edras
The legitimate object of government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done, but can not do at all, or can not so well do, for themselves-in their separate, and individual capacities. Abraham Lincoln
“It’s good to look beyond the bounds of accepted ideas” James Peebles,Princeton University
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As expected (see my post from June below): Quote from http://jboyd.net/Taxo/List18.html (just posted by Paul Taylor in a post discussing the taxonomy of Crested Bellbird): “The genus Gymnorhina (Australian Magpie) has been merged with Cracticus and Strepera has been reordered based on Kearns et al. (2013). The Black Butcherbird has been split into New Guinea Black-Butcherbird, Cracticus quoyi, and Australian Black-Butcherbird, Cracticus spaldingi. Kearns et al. (2011) found substantial genetic distance between these allopatric groups of taxa. However, Kearns et al. (2013) found little genetic distance and relationships that did not match the allopatric species in the Gray (or white-throated) Butcherbird group. Recognition of the Silver-backed Butcherbird, Cracticus argenteus, has always been controversial (e.g., IOC does not recognize it). The Black-backed Butcherbird, Cracticus mentalis, has been considered separate. In fact, some argenteus grouped with mentalis and some grouped with torquatus. All were genetically close, with a common ancestor probably about 200,000 years ago. Because of this I’ve lumped them with the Gray Butcherbird, Cracticus torquatus.” Cheers, Nikolas —————- Nikolas Haass nhaass@yahoo.com Brisbane, QLD ________________________________ From: Nikolas Haass < nhaass@yahoo.com> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2013 2:47 PM Forgot one thing. There is another take-home message: Either split Black BB into Australian BBB and New Guinea BBB or leave them lumped. In the latter case consequently, all three ‘white-throated BBs’ (Grey, Black-backed and Silver-backed) should be lumped, too, as these three seem to be more closely related to each other than the two populations of BBB to each other. Cheers, Nikolas —————- Nikolas Haass nhaass@yahoo.com Brisbane, QLD ________________________________ From: Nikolas Haass < nhaass@yahoo.com> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 6:19 PM Philip, No, it’s not that simple. Kearns et al. 2013 clearly shows that Australian Magpie is more closely related to Black Butcherbird than Black Butcherbird to all other butcherbirds. So, following your ‘opinion idea’, there are two options: (1) AM is a butcherbird and all butcherbirds including AM are lumped into one genus [as proposed by Kearns et al. 2013 and earlier by Christidis & Boles 2008] or (2) Black Butcherbird is a ‘magpie’ and consequently lumped with it in Gymnorhina and the remaining butcherbirds in Cracticus. Also very interesting is that some Silver-backed BBs appeared to be closely related to Grey BB but others to Black-backed BB. It looks like that another manuscript discussing this more into detail is in preparation. Cheers, Nikolas —————- Nikolas Haass nhaass@yahoo.com Brisbane, QLD ________________________________ Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 5:31 PM [Birding-Aus] Australian Magpie It is a formality of moving from being in the same family to being in the same genus. As all taxa are really expressions of opinion as to where the dividing line lies, it is not such a big change. Even casually, the similarity is suggestive. Philip [mailto:birding-aus-bounces@lists.vicnet.net.au] On Behalf Of John Graff Sent: Thursday, 27 June 2013 2:49 PM To: John Penhallurick; Birding-Aus Hi John, Interesting, though this was surely this has been on the cards for a while before this study. It was already listed as Cracticus tibicen by Christidis & Boles 2008, though I note IOC currently still has it in Gymnorhina (see http://www.worldbirdnames.org/n-batises.html). Not too surprising given quite a few similarities in morphology and voice. Ron Johnstone from the WA museum also mentioned that there are records of Pied Butcherbirds hybridising with Australian Magpie in central Aus. Cheers, John Magpie has been Book of Edras =============================== =============================== To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send the message: unsubscribe (in the body of the message, with no Subject line) http://birding-aus.org =============================== =============================== To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send the message: unsubscribe (in the body of the message, with no Subject line) http://birding-aus.org =============================== =============================== To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send the message: unsubscribe (in the body of the message, with no Subject line) http://birding-aus.org =============================== =============================== To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send the message: unsubscribe (in the body of the message, with no Subject line) http://birding-aus.org ===============================
My point exactly, Frank. As for piping-shrikes………..
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And ducked in running water is what he should be. It’s a “Black and white piping crow-shrike”.
Brian Fleming ===============================
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Totally disagree Greg! I’m not barracking for the ground butcherbirds…..
Go the Magpies
Yours in all things “green”
John Harris Croydon, Vic Owner – Wildlife Experiences Ecologist/Zoologist Nature Photographer Wildlife Guide wildlifeexperiences@gmail.com 0409090955
President, Field Naturalists Club of Victoria (www.fncv.org.au)
A friend has argued that as the Australian Magpie is not related to the European Magpie then we can use names of European birds for other native birds. My view is that we should change the name from ‘Australian Magpie’ to ‘Ground Butcherbird’ which is apparently what it is. I am running and ducking as I sign off!!!!
Regards Greg Dr Greg. P. Clancy Ecologist and Birding-wildlife Guide | PO Box 63 Coutts Crossing NSW 2460 | 02 6649 3153 | 0429 601 960 http://www.gregclancyecologistguide.com
Forgot one thing. There is another take-home message: Either split Black BB into Australian BBB and Neu Guinea BBB or leave them lumped. In the latter case consequently, all three ‘white-throated BBs’ (Grey, Black-backed and Silver-backed) should be lumped, too, as these three seem to be more closely related to each other than the two populations of BBB to each other.
Cheers,
Nikolas
Philip,
No, it’s not that simple. Kearns et al. 2013 clearly shows that Australian Magpie is more closely related to Black Butcherbird than Black Butcherbird to all other butcherbirds. So, following your ‘opinion idea’, there are two options: (1) AM is a butcherbird and all butcherbirds including AM are lumped into one genus [as proposed by Kearns et al. 2013 and earlier by Christidis & Boles 2008] or (2) Black Butcherbird is a ‘magpie’ and consequently lumped with it in Gymnorhina and the remaining butcherbirds in Cracticus.
Also very interesting is that some Silver-backed BBs appeared to be closely related to Grey BB but others to Black-backed BB. It looks like that another manuscript discussing this more into detail is in preparation.
Cheers,
Nikolas
It is a formality of moving from being in the same family to being in the same genus. As all taxa are really expressions of opinion as to where the dividing line lies, it is not such a big change. Even casually, the similarity is suggestive.
Philip
Hi John,
Interesting, though this was surely this has been on the cards for a while before this study. It was already listed as Cracticus tibicen by Christidis & Boles 2008, though I note IOC currently still has it in Gymnorhina (see http://www.worldbirdnames.org/n-batises.html). Not too surprising given quite a few similarities in morphology and voice. Ron Johnstone from the WA museum also mentioned that there are records of Pied Butcherbirds hybridising with Australian Magpie in central Aus.
Cheers, John
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