Hi All I have been reading this thread with interest. Being originally from Ireland I have no experience in access permits required for what appears to me to be a public access area. I know the land is ‘granted’ to the local inhabitants and if it was the size of a suburban block I would completely understand – I don’t want strangers wandering around in my back yard either. But we’re not talking about a quarter acre or even a 10acre block here are we? with cattle? or crops? We’re talking about a hunting ground of vast proportions with no facilities – it’s not even a reasonable comparison. It seems to me to be a ridiculous situation. Is this not a land for all Australians? I can appreciate that the locals don’t want people wandering anywhere all over the place possibly disturbing the game or interfering with their sacred sites, but visitors would stick to the few established tracks across what seems to be a wilderness, wouldn’t they? The amount of time anyone from ‘outside’ would spend there would be severly limited anyway and, with agreement, visiting vehicles could avoid settlements to reduce any impact on the inhabitants. Personally I see this as an outrageous outcome – that 80 or so birders can be denied access to a huge area of virtually uninhabitated countryside when a once in a lifetime opportunity is presented. There is no intention to damage the environment – far from it, injure, capture or destroy wildlife – the very opposite, or inhabit, stay or live in the area for more than a couple of days. The only outcome from my perspective, I’m afraid, is a further loss of respect or interest in understanding the aboriginal beliefs and claims. I’m sure there are those of you who will claim to understand their fears, appreciate their needs and recognise their beliefs. Sorry – this is an all Australian land (incidentally I am an Australian citizen too) and my hard earned taxes go towards supporting communities like this. While I do recognise their need for isolation and the opportunity to lead a way of life they feel they are entitled to, barring access to other travellers under the conditions decribed is just plain wrong. In fact being able to deny access to anyone to what should be at least a public thoroughfare is wrong. Incidentally what if you were ‘lucky’ enough to score the first type of permit – the drive-only-don’t-stop permit – and you needed to go to the toilet? I’m not being funny, in reality its a stupid proposition – just think about it for a minute….
By the way I had no plans to go, being unable to afford it because my taxes are so high…..
Colin Brisbane
Hi Amanda
On behalf of the list members, thanks very much for following this up and getting as much information as possible to those who are considering traveling to the Territory. Please also pass on our thanks to Gary Weir when you speak to him next.
Can I take this opportunity to remind everyone that entering ANY private land without permission may well undermine the relationships built up between many landowners and the birding community?
Good luck to those of you fortunate enough to be looking for Princess Parrots over the coming weeks – travel safely, act responsibly and have a fantastic time!
Russell Woodford Birding-Aus List Owner russell@birding-aus.org Geelong Victoria Australia http://www.birding-aus.org
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I can draw a parallel here with those birders who did not bother to get permits, or who were not behaving appropriately, resulting in access to Leanyer Sewage Ponds being tightened, and management declaring a couple of years ago, that such people could be arrested. It’s a similar situation with access to western Arnhem Land. Elders told me they even opposed a bridge over the East Alligator River because of the influx of tourists (and locals from Jabiru, for example) doing the wrong thing.
Visitors do not necessarily ‘stick’ to the tracks. As a birding/natural history guide of some 27 year’s experience, I’ve occasionally had hardcore birders, herpetologists and other enthusiasts break the rules. Some trespassed on private property, and another insisted on approaching a nursery cave of ghost bats. Consequently, I decided ten years ago, not to guide anyone who might behave in this way, let alone take them into Arnhem Land.
As for looking after the interests of birders, elders of several outstations around Mamadewerrie and Gudjekbinj (Baby Dreaming), declared some areas birding zones, and made hunting out of bounds. Now a traditional owner of Koongara, has made his land available to be incorporated into Kakadu – that area will be super for Arnhem escarpment endemics.
And on the issue raised earlier about training Indigenous guides – elders and I ran such a program at Gudjekbin, training our younger relatives. However, we, elders and myself, were declared ‘unaccredited’ by the NT Government. I wasn’t surprised but the elders, some of the most highly regarded bushmen and hunters in the Top End, were amazed, and furious. They will not do it again.
And a program to train such guides in Kakadu, was badly designed, and employed trainers who (according to my contacts) were ‘incompetent’. The money has now run out and the program has folded.
Hi all,
Last night I spoke to Gary Weir, the Chief District Ranger of Watarrka NP. He confirmed that Princess Parrots have been seen on Watarrka in the past. They are on the park’s species list. He’s also expecting that lots of birders will call up or want to ask for info. He was not aware of any specific locations (he’s been off the park the past fortnight and hadn’t asked his staff), but said they should be there.
If you’re intending to call or email Gary, (gary.weir@nt.gov.au) please wait until Monday as he’s not back on park until the afternoon (he’s actually interstate at the moment). Gary is aware of all of the excitement about the Princess Parrots. I will ask him to let other PWS staff know, next time I talk to him (later today -he’s my partner!).
Also, I would ask local Alice Springs birders for assistance who are part of this list, and contact the Alice Springs Field Naturalists (they have a website).
Cheers,
Amanda
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Hi Amanda, Thanks for your helpful and informed opinion on this. The phone numbers are much appreciated. Some of those options are already on our agenda now. As someone who is going out there, I can also totally understand the position that has been reached and whilst I’m disappointed I’m still really excited about getting out the central australia in its present condition. I also think that right now is not the time to have a massive whinge about it on a public forum. Certainly not helping anyone that’s for sure.
Dave
Hi all,
I’ve been sitting on the side lines. I’m the manager of anthropology at an agency which protects sacred sites across the entire NT and a dabbler in birding. I rarely post on this forum, although I often see lots of birds in the Centre that people want to tick off their ‘life’ lists.
In regards to sacred sites: there are many sacred sites in Central Australia that you most certainly CAN stumble into and potentially damage or break strict customs. Certain trees, particular hills, most water sources are indeed sacred sites. There are ways of avoiding sacred sites in the NT (you obtain a register inspection map from the Aboriginal Areas Protection Authority – which holds a register of sacred sites for all forms of land tenure in the NT, for purpose of site avoidance). If people are entering sacred sites without permission, then you can be prosecuted under the NT Sacred Sites Act in addition to the fine for entry into Aboriginal Land. The NT has very strict laws in regards to sacred sites – no matter where they are.
In regard to the Aboriginal land permits issue – I can only say that the Land Council must have been overwhelmed with 80 permit applications -goodness only know what the Traditional Owners thought! Given that people had already gone in there without permits… no wonder the answer was no.
Asking first and giving Traditional Owners more time to think -and Land Council staff more time to plan these things into their workloads- may have resulted in a better outcome.
All of us who deal with site clearances, permits etc up here are extremely overloaded at the moment due to a number of very large projects (like the Intervention/mining/Broadband cable). It’s not fair when people from interstate say to us ‘drop everything, this is urgent’ and we’re expected to order our staff to change their work programs, reallocate vehicles, cancel fieldwork that’s been planned for months. Remote area fieldwork is also expensive – the fieldwork to clear these permits would have cost several thousand dollars – staff wages, fuel, travel time etc. In many cases, you can’t just call Traditional Owners up on the phone. You need to drive out several hundred km and find the people you need to talk to. Thus, the costs for the permit would in no way cover the expenses incurred in securing it.
Yet, what I don’t understand is why birders aren’t turning to the Centre’s well known national parks for help?
You will probably find Princess Parrots in Watarrka National Park at the moment. Has anyone called the rangers to ask? 08 8956 7460 . You could also try Kings Creek Station and see if they’ve noticed any.
There are also Bourke Parrots on the far too infrequently visited Owen Springs Reserve right now – just off Larapinta Drive, about 15km west of the main Owen Springs access entrance. We’ve seen them.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there weren’t a few Princess Parrots in the far western end of the West MacDonnell National Park and around Tnorala (Gosse) Bluff Conservation Reserve. You could call the Ormiston Gorge Ranger Station: 08 8956 7799 and ask.
Also, the manager at Glen Helen Resort is a keen birder. May I also suggest calling him up to see if he’s seen any Princess Parrots near Glen Helen Gorge?
Finally, why not consider doing a 3 day trip around the Sandy Blight Track? If you are serious and desperate to see them, then this is THE best place. This is where I saw my first Princess Parrots in the wild three years ago – it’s absolutely brilliant country and the permits are issued within 5 days without the need for consultation. You need to get one from CLC and from the Ngaanyatjarra Land Council (08 8950 1711) for the WA portion. As this is a remote area, I would recommend that you have 4WD experience, hire a sat phone and travel in a group of cars.
I hope this is helpful and hopeful information,
Amanda
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Given what happened when 80 birders rang the CLC, perhaps any information obtained by ringing the people listed below should be posted to the list, even if it’s just news that no PPs were seen in that area.
Some of them will probably be pleased at the thought of this many extra guests, but I doubt they’ll be happy to answer the same question 80 times.
Peter Shute
Amanda
Thank you for the very helpful information.
Greg Little
Hi all,
I’ve been sitting on the side lines. I’m the manager of anthropology at an agency which protects sacred sites across the entire NT and a dabbler in birding. I rarely post on this forum, although I often see lots of birds in the Centre that people want to tick off their ‘life’ lists.
In regards to sacred sites: there are many sacred sites in Central Australia that you most certainly CAN stumble into and potentially damage or break strict customs. Certain trees, particular hills, most water sources are indeed sacred sites. There are ways of avoiding sacred sites in the NT (you obtain a register inspection map from the Aboriginal Areas Protection Authority – which holds a register of sacred sites for all forms of land tenure in the NT, for purpose of site avoidance). If people are entering sacred sites without permission, then you can be prosecuted under the NT Sacred Sites Act in addition to the fine for entry into Aboriginal Land. The NT has very strict laws in regards to sacred sites – no matter where they are.
In regard to the Aboriginal land permits issue – I can only say that the Land Council must have been overwhelmed with 80 permit applications -goodness only know what the Traditional Owners thought! Given that people had already gone in there without permits… no wonder the answer was no.
Asking first and giving Traditional Owners more time to think -and Land Council staff more time to plan these things into their workloads- may have resulted in a better outcome.
All of us who deal with site clearances, permits etc up here are extremely overloaded at the moment due to a number of very large projects (like the Intervention/mining/Broadband cable). It’s not fair when people from interstate say to us ‘drop everything, this is urgent’ and we’re expected to order our staff to change their work programs, reallocate vehicles, cancel fieldwork that’s been planned for months. Remote area fieldwork is also expensive – the fieldwork to clear these permits would have cost several thousand dollars – staff wages, fuel, travel time etc. In many cases, you can’t just call Traditional Owners up on the phone. You need to drive out several hundred km and find the people you need to talk to. Thus, the costs for the permit would in no way cover the expenses incurred in securing it.
Yet, what I don’t understand is why birders aren’t turning to the Centre’s well known national parks for help?
You will probably find Princess Parrots in Watarrka National Park at the moment. Has anyone called the rangers to ask? 08 8956 7460 . You could also try Kings Creek Station and see if they’ve noticed any.
There are also Bourke Parrots on the far too infrequently visited Owen Springs Reserve right now – just off Larapinta Drive, about 15km west of the main Owen Springs access entrance. We’ve seen them.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there weren’t a few Princess Parrots in the far western end of the West MacDonnell National Park and around Tnorala (Gosse) Bluff Conservation Reserve. You could call the Ormiston Gorge Ranger Station: 08 8956 7799 and ask.
Also, the manager at Glen Helen Resort is a keen birder. May I also suggest calling him up to see if he’s seen any Princess Parrots near Glen Helen Gorge?
Finally, why not consider doing a 3 day trip around the Sandy Blight Track? If you are serious and desperate to see them, then this is THE best place. This is where I saw my first Princess Parrots in the wild three years ago – it’s absolutely brilliant country and the permits are issued within 5 days without the need for consultation. You need to get one from CLC and from the Ngaanyatjarra Land Council (08 8950 1711) for the WA portion. As this is a remote area, I would recommend that you have 4WD experience, hire a sat phone and travel in a group of cars.
I hope this is helpful and hopeful information,
Amanda
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Clearly Philip is not a twitcher. Just as he is unable to comprehend the compulsion to go and see a bird for one’s self, so twitchers are equally dumbfounded by his thinking that it is sufficient for someone else to go see it for you. Each to his own I suppose ?
The last things a twitcher worries about are the cost and resources consumed in seeing a new bird. Irresponsible ? Maybe so.
Tony
Colin,
I have just been through a large part of Central Australia. Many areas are off-limits and most are private cattle stations. The traditional owners of indigenous land have the same rights to allow or exclude access as do any other Australians, be they ranchers or suburban homeowners. The law does not recognise size of block as pertinent to access – otherwise I’d have roamed all over El Questro! It is unfortunate that access has not been granted but how many cattle stations would allow 80 birdos into their lands, especially as they could be liable for injury claims in the event of accidents etc. Traditional owners have every right both at law and practically to restrict access to their lands.
Cheers,
Graham Buchan
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Colin
Like population its a taboo subject.
Greg Little
Colin
Aboriginal land is generally freehold and you are trespassing if you enter it without permission, as with any other freehold land in the country. However, large areas of Aboriginal land are leased back to the Government and are open to public visitation. Other areas are subject to mining leases and the miners control access.
Pastoralists and miners regularly refuse access to their properties and why shouldn’t Aboriginal landowners have the same property rights?
Generally, permits to enter Aboriginal freehold land are granted unless there’s a good reason not to; unsuitable vehicle, unsafe conditions, cultural reasons, etc. And of course you can stop by the side of the road with a transit permit, you just can’t go wandering off through the bush.
Regards
David
“Colin R” To Sent by: birding-aus@vicnet.net.au birding-aus-bounc cc es@vicnet.net.au Subject [Birding-Aus] Princess Parrots 13/08/10 04:29 PM issue
Hi All I have been reading this thread with interest. Being originally from Ireland I have no experience in access permits required for what appears to me to be a public access area. I know the land is ‘granted’ to the local inhabitants and if it was the size of a suburban block I would completely understand – I don’t want strangers wandering around in my back yard either. But we’re not talking about a quarter acre or even a 10acre block here are we? with cattle? or crops? We’re talking about a hunting ground of vast proportions with no facilities – it’s not even a reasonable comparison. It seems to me to be a ridiculous situation. Is this not a land for all Australians? I can appreciate that the locals don’t want people wandering anywhere all over the place possibly disturbing the game or interfering with their sacred sites, but visitors would stick to the few established tracks across what seems to be a wilderness, wouldn’t they? The amount of time anyone from ‘outside’ would spend there would be severly limited anyway and, with agreement, visiting vehicles could avoid settlements to reduce any impact on the inhabitants. Personally I see this as an outrageous outcome – that 80 or so birders can be denied access to a huge area of virtually uninhabitated countryside when a once in a lifetime opportunity is presented. There is no intention to damage the environment – far from it, injure, capture or destroy wildlife – the very opposite, or inhabit, stay or live in the area for more than a couple of days. The only outcome from my perspective, I’m afraid, is a further loss of respect or interest in understanding the aboriginal beliefs and claims. I’m sure there are those of you who will claim to understand their fears, appreciate their needs and recognise their beliefs. Sorry – this is an all Australian land (incidentally I am an Australian citizen too) and my hard earned taxes go towards supporting communities like this. While I do recognise their need for isolation and the opportunity to lead a way of life they feel they are entitled to, barring access to other travellers under the conditions decribed is just plain wrong. In fact being able to deny access to anyone to what should be at least a public thoroughfare is wrong. Incidentally what if you were ‘lucky’ enough to score the first type of permit – the drive-only-don’t-stop permit – and you needed to go to the toilet? I’m not being funny, in reality its a stupid proposition – just think about it for a minute….
By the way I had no plans to go, being unable to afford it because my taxes are so high…..
Colin Brisbane
Actually Phillip, if you look in HANZAB, we know next to nothing about the ecology of Princess Parrots as a species, in the wild. So if people took good notes, and submitted them appropriately, it could contribute quite a lot to our knowledge and the long term prospects of the species.
Regards, Chris
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Peter – I agree entirely with what you say.
I think people travelling far and wide in search of birds is generally great for locals. Additionally, by far the majority of people are of the “leave no trace” ethos as regards nature. However, it’s a sad fact that not everyone has that policy, and as disappointing as it is for birders with a twitching tendency (and I myself was starting to make travel plans), having some santuary for wildlife where not even the most hardened birdwatchers can get in is probably not such a bad thing.
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I’m no expert on this, so my answer might be naive. There is a long history of abuse of trust by white people against aboriginal people. They have fought long and hard to have the rights that they do have over their traditional country. In Victoria, such rights barely exist.
To allow that many people to wander around is inviting someone to stumble on a sacred site, etc. The area is huge, but searches will most likely be concentrated in the more hospitable areas, which I’m guessing might be where these sites are concentrated.
And don’t forget that the reason given for the refusal wasn’t just the numbers, it was because people have already started to enter without permits. If they decided to allow in 20 people at a time, how are they going to enforce it if people are going in without permits anyway?
It’s really annoying that people can’t get in to see these birds, but if allowing them all in (and who knows how many would eventually come – I’m shocked that there are already 80) might jeopardise their future ability to excercise their right to deny entry (to miners, for example), then who cares? The birds have been seen and documented, and while it would be good to have the area searched more thoroughly, it’s just a twitch now. It’s a very good thing that everyone has been warned well in advance they won’t have access.
That’s just my opinion. I’d appreciate if anyone more knowledgable about these things could comment further.
Peter Shute
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