Birding-Aus Digest, Vol 120, Issue 4

By Birding-Aus, on November 5th, 2023

All I got to say is a Willy Wagtail to you all with this chatter. Different strokes different Folks

Jon Wren

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Subject: Birding-Aus Digest, Vol 120, Issue 4

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Today’s Topics:

1. Re: Lyrebird renaming (lumpster@bigpond.com)

2. Re: Lyrebird renaming (Ronald ORENSTEIN)

3. Re: Winds of Change (Stephen Ambrose)

4. Re: Lyrebird renaming (ERIC JEFFREY)

5. REN (Lawrie Conole)

6. Re: REN (Paul Taylor)

———————————————————————-

Message: 1

From: <lumpster@bigpond.com>

To: "’Chris King’" <chrisk58@gmail.com>, "’Geoff Ryan’"

<geoffryanster@gmail.com>, "Ross Macfarlane" <rmacfarl@tpg.com.au>

Cc: "’birding-aus’" <birding-aus@birding-aus.org>

Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lyrebird renaming

Message-ID: <2990ce17-cd0d-46cb-b453-eff8017a570f@localhost>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Let’s agree that the next new species discovered be called the Woke Virtue-Signaller.

That way, when this nonsense collapses under the weight of it’s own stupidity, we can re-revise history and rename it something sensible.

David.

> On ,Sun Nov 05 2023 13:34:53 GMT+1000 (Australian Eastern Standard Time),

> Ross Macfarlane <rmacfarl@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> ———- Original Message ———-

> Very amusing of course, but given we are happy to name Western and Mallee

> Whipbirds that don?t, then a lyrebird with no lyre is probably not a deal

> broken.

> Cheers,

> Ross

> *From:*

> Birding-Aus <birding-aus-bounces@birding-aus.org> *On Behalf Of* Chris King

> *Sent:* Sunday, November 5, 2023 10:06 AM

> *To:* Geoff Ryan <geoffryanster@gmail.com>

> *Cc:* birding-aus <birding-aus@birding-aus.org>

> *Subject:* Re: [Birding-Aus] Lyrebird renaming

> What about plumed muckraker?

> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023, 9:49 am Geoff Ryan, < geoffryanster@gmail.com > wrote:

>> I just wanted to get in first with – The *Plumed Mulchscratcher* aka the PM

>> (for the Superb) and the *Lesser Plumed Mulchscratche* r aka LPM (for

>> Prince Alberts). Thinking of renaming all Australian birds.

>> Geoff

>> <HR>

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Message: 2

Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 00:45:00 -0400

From: Ronald ORENSTEIN <ron.orenstein@rogers.com>

To: ‘birding-aus’ <birding-aus@birding-aus.org>, pveerman@pcug.org.au

Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lyrebird renaming

Message-ID: <25e665dc-7485-4a33-9933-c0fae582c5e3@Spark>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

As long as everyone is going whole hog on this may I??suggest that the Australian treecreepers, which are highly distinct birds, need a name of their own. How about ?ladderbird?, given that Climacteris apparently means ?little ladder??

Ronald Orenstein 1825 Shady Creek Court Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2 Canada ronorenstein.blogspot.com

On Nov 5, 2023 at 1:36?AM -0400, Philip Veerman <pveerman@pcug.org.au>, wrote:

> There are lots of examples. Another one is Jabiru. Yes it is the proper name for a South American stork and the name refers to a feature of that species. So its etymology does not apply to our Australian stork. But for reasons that I don?t know the name was carried across to our stork and still widely used. I think partly because Jabiru sure sounds like an Australian word (like kangaroo and it has a big jabbing beak, it is easy to say and sounds less formulaic). And from there it was given to a town and an airline. Is it wrong? It is still a related species, just as our species is related to the White Stork. Is the relationship closer than to the real Jabiru? Black-necked Stork aligns it to the European bird, is it more wrong to align it with a South American bird? I will call it Black-necked Stork.

> Philip

> From: Birding-Aus [

> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lyrebird renaming

> What about plumed muckraker?

> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023, 9:49 am Geoff Ryan, <geoffryanster@gmail.com> wrote:

> > quote_type

> > I just wanted to get in first with – The Plumed Mulchscratcher aka the PM (for the Superb) and the Lesser Plumed Mulchscratcher aka LPM (for Prince Alberts). Thinking of renaming all Australian birds.

> > Geoff

> >

> > <HR>

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Message: 3

Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 17:36:10 +1100

From: "Stephen Ambrose" <stephen@ambecol.com.au>

To: "’Gordon Claridge’" <gfclaridge@gmail.com>, "’Laurie Knight’"

<l.knight@optusnet.com.au>

Cc: "’Birding Aus’" <birding-aus@birding-aus.org>

Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Winds of Change

Message-ID: <001301da0fb2$5d9fa5b0$18def110$@ambecol.com.au>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I can certainly understand the concerns of people regarding the changes to personified common names of Australian bird species, but people will continue to use the common names which they are most comfortable with in a colloquial context. I still come across people who call the Magpie-lark a Peewee or a Piping Shrike, and that’s okay with me. It’s only going to be in formal communications (e.g. scientific, educational and conservation communications and considerations) the common name changes will matter. So old common names and their meanings will never disappear.

I remember with some amusement when Australian warbler species were renamed gerygones in 1978 which at the time resulted in a lot of consternation among birdwatchers, including myself. In fact the late Dom Serventy ran a 5-day birdwatching course at the Eyre Bird Observatory in 1981 and at the end of each day everyone came together to compile the group’s bird list. When one rookie birdwatcher asked Dom how "gerygone" is spelled he replied with great indignation, "W-A-R-B-L-E-R!". But 45 years after this renaming, people hardly batter an eyelid over the use of the word "gerygone" as a collective common name.

As for a possible name change to Lewin’s Honeyeater, John Lewin will still be remembered in the scientific name, Meliphaga lewinii, similarly with Lewin’s Rail (Lewinia pectoralis), unless there is a move to change scientific names as well.

Kind regards,

Stephen

Stephen Ambrose

Ryde NSW

—–Original Message—–

From: Birding-Aus <birding-aus-bounces@birding-aus.org> On Behalf Of Gordon Claridge

Sent: 5 November 2023 9:54 AM

To: Laurie Knight <l.knight@optusnet.com.au>

Cc: Birding Aus <birding-aus@birding-aus.org>

Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Winds of Change

Revisionism indeed. Are they so short of other things to occupy their time?

This means more erosion of connections to elements of Australian history and culture. Presumably Lewin?s Honeyeater will suffer a name change, thus removing a pointer to not only John Lewin?s role in illustrating Australian birds, but also his being the first artist to record the distinct ?look? of Australia without being blinded by European art conventions – a significant milestone in the development of Australian art(1).

It puts me in mind of a revision of common names back in (I think) the early ?80s and the proposal to do away with the ?Nankeen? in Kestrel and Night Parrot names – apparently by people who were not aware that the name derived from the colour of a very cheap cotton fabric that was imported in considerable volume from Nanking in the early days. Not a major part of Australian history, but a pointer to the fact that there was trade between the colonies and China, and also that the fabric was so common for the name given to the fabric to become the descriptor for a particular colour.

Gordon

(1) thanks Wikipedia

> On 4 Nov 2023, at 18:47, Laurie Knight <l.knight@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> The joys of revisionism. It?s one way for taxonomists to make their mark without defining a new species.

> I guess it will be a straightforward process for species that only occur in one country. I am not sure who would arbitrate over species that breed in numerous countries or are international migrants. (There are heaps of shorebirds and seabirds potentially affected).

> I think they should rename Victoria?s Riflebird at the same time as Albert?s Lyrebird (Victoria became a shadow of herself when Albert died).

> I wonder if the powers that be will want to change the name from Royal to Federal Spoonbill when Australia eventually becomes a republic

> Regards, Laurie

>> On 4 Nov 2023, at 9:01 am, Geoffrey Dabb <gdabb@iinet.net.au> wrote:

>> ? are blowing through our bird names. For more than 10 years the possibility of changing English-language bird names referring to a person (?personal? or ?eponymous? names) has been on the table. There are no longer any ?correct? or standard names, so the names used are a matter for the user – whether an organisation or government agency or field guide – or just someone talking or writing about birds. Birdlife Australia, as one name-using organisation, has taken an in-principle decision to move away from personal names. How this is to be done will be explained in due course by Birdlife Australia. As it happens, a similar decision has just been taken for North America by the American Ornithological Society (AOS). That?s OK. Each generation can decide on its own bird names.

>> Here are a few more points. The initiative does not affect the many scientific names that refer to a person. For the time being at least, names referring to a place that bears a personal name will not be affected (e.g. Lord Howe Woodhen, Tasmanian Native-hen). Both the organisations mentioned see their projects as directed to species that occur mainly in the respective geographic areas they cover. So in the case of Australia Baillon?s Crake might not be due for attention. That raises the question how the many oceanic seabirds with personal names will be dealt with. Perhaps that will be a matter for global lists as they adopt their own policies in reaction to this development.

>> Both organisations intend to take a consultative approach and look for appropriate descriptive names. Experience of that task suggests that this will not be all that simple, particularly if features descriptive of the male only are to be avoided. Albert?s Lyrebird will be an early candidate for the chopping block. Not only does Prince Albert not deserve to have a bird named for him but the ?lyre? refers to the male only, of a different species.

>> Geoffrey

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——————————

Message: 4

Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 16:47:24 -0500

From: ERIC JEFFREY <ECJ100@aol.com>

To: lumpster@bigpond.com

Cc: Chris King <chrisk58@gmail.com>, Geoff Ryan

<geoffryanster@gmail.com>, Ross Macfarlane <rmacfarl@tpg.com.au>,

birding-aus <birding-aus@birding-aus.org>

Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lyrebird renaming

Message-ID: <CDD1FAB7-19B4-4793-B45C-EA01874ED5FA@aol.com>

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Message: 5

Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2023 08:55:29 +1100

From: Lawrie Conole <lconole@gmail.com>

To: birding-aus@birding-aus.org

Subject: [Birding-Aus] REN

Message-ID: <695BC05E-9508-4435-AD1B-38DD5D51F124@gmail.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Good morning

I?ve been away from organised ornithology/birding for about a decade. It?s somehow reassuring to see that the topic of hot discussion now is the same as when I first got involved in the late 1970s, when REN was consuming all the correspondents!! (REN – Recommended English names for Australian birds published in Emu in 1978).

I haven?;t even kept up with the lumps & splits, much less the RENs ? but Plumed Muckraker is pretty good, I?ll give you that.

😉

Dr Lawrie Conole

Castlemaine VIC 3450

Australia

> On 6 Nov 2023, at 4:00?am, birding-aus-request@birding-aus.org wrote:

> Send Birding-Aus mailing list submissions to

> birding-aus@birding-aus.org

> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

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> You can reach the person managing the list at

> birding-aus-owner@birding-aus.org

> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific

> than "Re: Contents of Birding-Aus digest…"

> Today’s Topics:

> 1. Lyrebird renaming (Geoff Ryan)

> 2. Re: Lyrebird renaming (Chris King)

> 3. Rain, Ants and Needletails (Laurie Knight)

> 4. Re: Winds of Change (Gordon Claridge)

> 5. Re: Lyrebird renaming (Ross Macfarlane)

> 6. Re: Lyrebird renaming (Philip Veerman)

> 7. Re: Lyrebird renaming (Penny)

> 8. Lyrebird renaming (calyptorhynchus)

> ———————————————————————-

> Message: 1

> Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 06:14:52 +1100

> From: Geoff Ryan <geoffryanster@gmail.com>

> To: birding-aus@birding-aus.org

> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Lyrebird renaming

> Message-ID:

> <CAMVTTzz-wf=SBRtO-R-1EQWLDj1Y39QWtSDrd0v1PBKR9KCZ0g@mail.gmail.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

> I just wanted to get in first with – The *Plumed Mulchscratcher* aka the PM

> (for the Superb) and the* Lesser Plumed Mulchscratche*r aka LPM (for Prince

> Alberts). Thinking of renaming all Australian birds.

> Geoff

> ————– next part ————–

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> ——————————

> Message: 2

> Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:06:13 +1100

> From: Chris King <chrisk58@gmail.com>

> To: Geoff Ryan <geoffryanster@gmail.com>

> Cc: birding-aus <birding-aus@birding-aus.org>

> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lyrebird renaming

> Message-ID:

> <CAHHdsTNw67z9q_S1=01S_GgThhU5MJnsvRa3UYFpb5Gv7=rSWg@mail.gmail.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

> What about plumed muckraker?

> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023, 9:49 am Geoff Ryan, <geoffryanster@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I just wanted to get in first with – The *Plumed Mulchscratcher* aka the

>> PM (for the Superb) and the* Lesser Plumed Mulchscratche*r aka LPM (for

>> Prince Alberts). Thinking of renaming all Australian birds.

>> Geoff

>> <HR>

>> Birding-Aus mailing list

>> Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org

>> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:

>> birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org

>> </HR>

> ————– next part ————–

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> ——————————

> Message: 3

> Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 10:51:01 +1000

> From: Laurie Knight <l.knight@optusnet.com.au>

> To: birding-aus@birding-aus.org

> Subject: [Birding-Aus] Rain, Ants and Needletails

> Message-ID: <0ABAF976-CC1B-4133-9A69-8936C09D5D44@optusnet.com.au>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

> G?day Mike

> During a brief period in the southern suburbs of Brisbane this morning, there was a confluence of rain (minor thunder), flying ants and low level needletails. Given the small field of view from my back deck, I could only see half a dozen individuals in the swift passage.

> Regards Laurie

> ——————————

> Message: 4

> Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 08:53:49 +1000

> From: Gordon Claridge <gfclaridge@gmail.com>

> To: Laurie Knight <l.knight@optusnet.com.au>

> Cc: Geoffrey Dabb <gdabb@iinet.net.au>, Birding Aus

> <birding-aus@birding-aus.org>

> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Winds of Change

> Message-ID: <6D458313-9BDA-436F-838C-53E6EE524C96@gmail.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

> Revisionism indeed. Are they so short of other things to occupy their time?

> This means more erosion of connections to elements of Australian history and culture. Presumably Lewin?s Honeyeater will suffer a name change, thus removing a pointer to not only John Lewin?s role in illustrating Australian birds, but also his being the first artist to record the distinct ?look? of Australia without being blinded by European art conventions – a significant milestone in the development of Australian art(1).

> It puts me in mind of a revision of common names back in (I think) the early ?80s and the proposal to do away with the ?Nankeen? in Kestrel and Night Parrot names – apparently by people who were not aware that the name derived from the colour of a very cheap cotton fabric that was imported in considerable volume from Nanking in the early days. Not a major part of Australian history, but a pointer to the fact that there was trade between the colonies and China, and also that the fabric was so common for the name given to the fabric to become the descriptor for a particular colour.

> Gordon

> (1) thanks Wikipedia

>> On 4 Nov 2023, at 18:47, Laurie Knight <l.knight@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>> The joys of revisionism. It?s one way for taxonomists to make their mark without defining a new species.

>> I guess it will be a straightforward process for species that only occur in one country. I am not sure who would arbitrate over species that breed in numerous countries or are international migrants. (There are heaps of shorebirds and seabirds potentially affected).

>> I think they should rename Victoria?s Riflebird at the same time as Albert?s Lyrebird (Victoria became a shadow of herself when Albert died).

>> I wonder if the powers that be will want to change the name from Royal to Federal Spoonbill when Australia eventually becomes a republic

>> Regards, Laurie

>>> On 4 Nov 2023, at 9:01 am, Geoffrey Dabb <gdabb@iinet.net.au> wrote:

>>>

>>> ? are blowing through our bird names. For more than 10 years the possibility of changing English-language bird names referring to a person (?personal? or ?eponymous? names) has been on the table. There are no longer any ?correct? or standard names, so the names used are a matter for the user – whether an organisation or government agency or field guide – or just someone talking or writing about birds. Birdlife Australia, as one name-using organisation, has taken an in-principle decision to move away from personal names. How this is to be done will be explained in due course by Birdlife Australia. As it happens, a similar decision has just been taken for North America by the American Ornithological Society (AOS). That?s OK. Each generation can decide on its own bird names.

>>>

>>> Here are a few more points. The initiative does not affect the many scientific names that refer to a person. For the time being at least, names referring to a place that bears a personal name will not be affected (e.g. Lord Howe Woodhen, Tasmanian Native-hen). Both the organisations mentioned see their projects as directed to species that occur mainly in the respective geographic areas they cover. So in the case of Australia Baillon?s Crake might not be due for attention. That raises the question how the many oceanic seabirds with personal names will be dealt with. Perhaps that will be a matter for global lists as they adopt their own policies in reaction to this development.

>>>

>>> Both organisations intend to take a consultative approach and look for appropriate descriptive names. Experience of that task suggests that this will not be all that simple, particularly if features descriptive of the male only are to be avoided. Albert?s Lyrebird will be an early candidate for the chopping block. Not only does Prince Albert not deserve to have a bird named for him but the ?lyre? refers to the male only, of a different species.

>>>

>>> Geoffrey

>>>

>>> <HR>

>>> Birding-Aus mailing list

>>> Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org

>>> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:

>>> birding-aus.org/mailman/listinfo/birding-aus_birding-aus.org

>>> </HR>

>> <HR>

>> Birding-Aus mailing list

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>> </HR>

> ——————————

> Message: 5

> Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 14:34:53 +1100

> From: "Ross Macfarlane" <rmacfarl@tpg.com.au>

> To: "’Chris King’" <chrisk58@gmail.com>, "’Geoff Ryan’"

> <geoffryanster@gmail.com>

> Cc: "’birding-aus’" <birding-aus@birding-aus.org>

> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lyrebird renaming

> Message-ID: <006701da0f99$0b08f400$211adc00$@tpg.com.au>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

> Very amusing of course, but given we are happy to name Western and Mallee Whipbirds that don?t, then a lyrebird with no lyre is probably not a deal broken.

> Cheers,

> Ross

> From: Birding-Aus <birding-aus-bounces@birding-aus.org> On Behalf Of Chris King

> Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2023 10:06 AM

> To: Geoff Ryan <geoffryanster@gmail.com>

> Cc: birding-aus <birding-aus@birding-aus.org>

> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lyrebird renaming

> What about plumed muckraker?

> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023, 9:49 am Geoff Ryan, <geoffryanster@gmail.com <mailto:geoffryanster@gmail.com> > wrote:

> I just wanted to get in first with – The Plumed Mulchscratcher aka the PM (for the Superb) and the Lesser Plumed Mulchscratcher aka LPM (for Prince Alberts). Thinking of renaming all Australian birds.

> Geoff

> <HR>

> Birding-Aus mailing list

> Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org <mailto:Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org>

> To change settings or unsubscribe visit:

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> </HR>

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> ——————————

> Message: 6

> Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2023 16:35:48 +1100

> From: "Philip Veerman" <pveerman@pcug.org.au>

> To: "’birding-aus’" <birding-aus@birding-aus.org>

> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lyrebird renaming

> Message-ID: <004a01da0fa9$eeb945a0$cc2bd0e0$@org.au>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

> Philip

> From: Birding-Aus [

> What about plumed muckraker?

> On Sun, 5 Nov 2023, 9:49 am Geoff Ryan, <geoffryanster@gmail.com> wrote:

> Geoff

> <HR>

> Birding-Aus mailing list

> Birding-Aus@birding-aus.org

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> ——————————

> Message: 7

> Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2023 18:31:41 +1100

> From: Penny <penny@pennydb.org>

> To: "Willem Jan Marinus Vader" <birding-aus@birding-aus.org>

> Subject: Re: [Birding-Aus] Lyrebird renaming

> Message-ID: <472e6531-db4f-4672-bd6a-5c8ab70aa1ad@app.fastmail.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

> But the South American Jabiru looks totally different to our Black-necked Stork.

> On Sun, Nov 5, 2023, at 4:35 PM, Philip Veerman wrote:

>> There are lots of examples. Another one is Jabiru. Yes it is the proper name for a South American stork and the name refers to a feature of that species. So its etymology does not apply to our Australian stork. But for reasons that I don?t know the name was carried across to our stork and still widely used. I think partly because Jabiru sure sounds like an Australian word (like kangaroo and it has a big jabbing beak, it is easy to say and sounds less formulaic). And from there it was given to a town and an airline. Is it wrong? It is still a related species, just as our species is related to the White Stork. Is the relationship closer than to the real Jabiru? Black-necked Stork aligns it to the European bird, is it more wrong to align it with a South American bird? I will call it Black-necked Stork.

>> Philip

>> *From:* Birding-Aus [fryanster@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> I just wanted to get in first with – The *Plumed Mulchscratcher* aka the PM (for the Superb) and the* Lesser Plumed Mulchscratche*r aka LPM (for Prince Alberts). Thinking of renaming all Australian birds.

>>> Geoff

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